Court OKs barring people with high IQs from becoming cops

[Makalakumu]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.TwF3HYHNnoh

A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city.


The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.


“This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class,” Jordan said today from his Waterford home. “I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else.”



He said he does not plan to take any further legal action.


Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.

This is a really bad idea. How common it is for various precincts to do this?

 

[Tez3]

Actually it's a good idea! having a high IQ is often an indicator of having no common sense! I watched a programme recently about a graduate with, yes a high IQ who joined the fire service here, the trainees did an exercise at a factory that was on fire. they went through the motions of fighting the fire in the way they'd been taught but he was standing by so he was asked by the instructor what he was doing, he replied he was working out the way the fire would burn through the building, taking into account all the factors including the wind 'swirl' between building, how and where the fire started etc etc. It was very good academically, theinstructor asked him if he'd made sure any occupants were out and accounted for, he looked at him in horror, it hadn't occurred to him to be that practical! He stayed in the fire service but as a very good investigator not a fireman.

 

[ballen0351]

So thats why I was hired so quickly.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.TwF3HYHNnoh

This is a really bad idea. How common it is for various precincts to do this?

No idea. But the agency I used to work for required all sworn officers to have a four-year degree. Didn't matter what the degree was in. I always thought that was a good thing. However, barring illegal discrimination against a protected class (and 'smart' isn't one), governments are free to set their own standards.

 

[billc]

I would think that you are narrowing down your pool of good candidates unnecesarily. In the case that Tez sites, that kind of bad judgement could be ruled out in training. there are other really smart people who would do the exact opposite of that guy. A persons ability to make good decisions can only be seen in the testing, training and probationary period of the recruit.

 

[ballen0351]

I would think that you are narrowing down your pool of good candidates unnecesarily. In the case that Tez sites, that kind of bad judgement could be ruled out in training. there are other really smart people who would do the exact opposite of that guy. A persons ability to make good decisions can only be seen in the testing, training and probationary period of the recruit.

Problem is with most department by the time the applicant reaches the academy or passes and get to the probationary period they have invested so much money and time they are reluctant to fire anyone. Ive seen some really really poor recruits get passed thru the academy even when the academy staff has said they should be fired. I am also a Field training officer and have failed a probationary officer and said they should be fired for serous anger issues, as well as a total lack of common sense only to have him given to other Field training officers and told they WILL pass this time. That only happened to me onceand I was right about 16 months later he was fired and the city lost a lot of money when he slammed a tourist into a large plate glass window shattering the window and severly cutting the tourist on his face arms chest and legs. I left that department shortly after that happened. Im sure not all departments are like this but after spending 1000's of dollars and almost a year of background checks and academy training departments have a hard time letting people go.

I personally believe departments need to up the standards for hiring but sadly they are lowering them esp physical fitness and drug use standards. The NAACP is trying to get my state to raise the number of times you are allow to try drugs because they said the current standards of 0 uses for cocaine, heroin, LSD, PCP, and 5 Marijuana uses in a lifetime with none in last 5 years were not fair to inner city black men.

 

[elder999]

Actually it's a good idea! having a high IQ is often an indicator of having no common sense!.

No, Irene. Having no common sense is an indicator of having no common sense!

Having a high IQ is an indicator of taking IQ tests well.

I personally believe departments need to up the standards for hiring but sadly they are lowering them esp physical fitness and drug use standards. The NAACP is trying to get my state to raise the number of times you are allow to try drugs because they said the current standards of 0 uses for cocaine, heroin, LSD, PCP, and 5 Marijuana uses in a lifetime with none in last 5 years were not fair to inner city black men.

Those standards are much more stringent than the current guidelines for qualifying for a federal top secret clearance.

 

[Tez3]

No, Irene. Having no common sense is an indicator of having no common sense!

Having a high IQ is an indicator of taking IQ tests well.



Those standards are much more stringent than the current guidelines for qualifying for a federal top secret clearance.

True enough, however you can learn to take IQ tests so does that mean you have a high IQ if you can learn to take them?

 

[granfire]

No idea. But the agency I used to work for required all sworn officers to have a four-year degree. Didn't matter what the degree was in. I always thought that was a good thing. However, barring illegal discrimination against a protected class (and 'smart' isn't one), governments are free to set their own standards.

Well, it might not yet be acceptable to discriminate against smart people (or ever, since there always will be more dumb ones...) current effords really do seem to aim at making that segment of the population an endangered species...(no child left behind my ****)

 

[MJS]

Some PDs here in CT require a college degree, others do not. I think that one of the reasons why something like this happens, is because the higher ups feel that if someone is that smart, they may be bored with the typical day to day work of a LEO. IMO, I'd rather have someone with some good smarts, instead of a dummy. This isn't to say that they have to have a 4yr degree or be some mega brain, but they should have some good solid common sense.

 

[jks9199]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.TwF3HYHNnoh



This is a really bad idea. How common it is for various precincts to do this?

It's not. I'm not aware any other department with a maximum score on an equivalent test. In fact, most that I'm aware don't use a full IQ test. Psych tests are generally tools to hopefully screen out or at least inform the candidate about things that could be problems.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's not. I'm not aware any other department with a maximum score on an equivalent test. In fact, most that I'm aware don't use a full IQ test. Psych tests are generally tools to hopefully screen out or at least inform the candidate about things that could be problems.

That's good to know. I'd hate to see this become a widespread precedent. Imagine filling the streets with armed people smart enough to follow directions and incurious enough to not ask questions.

 

[Makalakumu]

So thats why I was hired so quickly.

:bangahead:

 

[David43515]

No, Irene. Having no common sense is an indicator of having no common sense!

Having a high IQ is an indicator of taking IQ tests well.



Those standards are much more stringent than the current guidelines for qualifying for a federal top secret clearance.

So what does it say about me that I`ve never tried any of those things? ( I know, I`m boring....Actually I`ve just always been a slightly paranoid self-control freak.)

 

[ballen0351]

Those standards are much more stringent than the current guidelines for qualifying for a federal top secret clearance.

We also give officers guns and allow them to take a life, let them roam the streets freely with little to no supervision with the power to detain and arrest a person. I think standards should be higher then some paper pusher in an office that gets to see documents that some other paper pusher has decided were "TOP SECRET." There already are enough "bad" cops out there why lower the standards?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Some PDs here in CT require a college degree, others do not. I think that one of the reasons why something like this happens, is because the higher ups feel that if someone is that smart, they may be bored with the typical day to day work of a LEO. IMO, I'd rather have someone with some good smarts, instead of a dummy. This isn't to say that they have to have a 4yr degree or be some mega brain, but they should have some good solid common sense.

A four year degree doesn't just mean a certain level of intellect or even education; it can also mean they can do something for four years without quitting. That may not sound like much, but not everyone, regardless of intelligence, can do it. Same for prior military; it is often considered a benefit because the veteran is a known quantity; he or she can take orders, understands discipline, and can make a commitment and stick to it.

Consider that in many states, the local PD has to bear the cost of state peace officer certification. That can cost upwards of $50,000 per officer. A small town with a few dozen police officers (or even fewer) can ill afford to hire someone, have them complete certification at the state-run academy, and then bail for a bigger PD down the road that pays more.

It's not the same everywhere. When I was working in LE in Colorado, we had recruiters come up from Houston PD. Basically if you had 98.6 degrees F and no felony convictions, they'd hire you that day and you'd be wearing a Houston PD badge in a month. Of course, it was also a good way to get killed in those days. I heard Metro-Dade was similar; they'd hire anyone, but they were basically cannon-fodder during the Miami drug wars.

 

[Tez3]

A reasonable educational standard of course is important for polcie officers but there's far more to the job than being able to write reports and to string a decent sentence together, a high/low IQ doesn't tell you about a person's moral values or their courage for example. It can't tell you if they are racist or they have compassion, that they take a job seriously or just doing it for the money, whether they can get on with people or work in a team, whether they have any commonsense or gumption, There's so many things it doesn't tell you so I'd say a good standard of education as a start but use other means ie interviews, tests of physical and leadership skills and command tasks. These will tell you more about candidates than an IQ test ever will.

 

[MJS]

A four year degree doesn't just mean a certain level of intellect or even education; it can also mean they can do something for four years without quitting. That may not sound like much, but not everyone, regardless of intelligence, can do it. Same for prior military; it is often considered a benefit because the veteran is a known quantity; he or she can take orders, understands discipline, and can make a commitment and stick to it.

Consider that in many states, the local PD has to bear the cost of state peace officer certification. That can cost upwards of $50,000 per officer. A small town with a few dozen police officers (or even fewer) can ill afford to hire someone, have them complete certification at the state-run academy, and then bail for a bigger PD down the road that pays more.

It's not the same everywhere. When I was working in LE in Colorado, we had recruiters come up from Houston PD. Basically if you had 98.6 degrees F and no felony convictions, they'd hire you that day and you'd be wearing a Houston PD badge in a month. Of course, it was also a good way to get killed in those days. I heard Metro-Dade was similar; they'd hire anyone, but they were basically cannon-fodder during the Miami drug wars.

Good points Bill. I was simply saying that there are people out there that are more than capable of doing a great job, but don't have that college degree. OTOH, like I said, I'd be willing to bet that the main reason they don't hire people that're overly smart, is out of fear they'll get bored with the typical police work, and leave, which leaves the dept. in a lurch after spending the time/money to hire and train the person. Then again, nothing says they have to stay at that job for 20yrs. Get your foot in the door, and who knows....perhaps a promotion, ie: Sgt. or perhaps a LE job on the Federal level.

Then again, the 'paper' doesn't ensure the person you hire will always work out.

 

[ballen0351]

Consider that in many states, the local PD has to bear the cost of state peace officer certification. That can cost upwards of $50,000 per officer. A small town with a few dozen police officers (or even fewer) can ill afford to hire someone, have them complete certification at the state-run academy, and then bail for a bigger PD down the road that pays more.

Most smaller departments now require you to sign a contract if they send you to an academy. My first department required me to sign a 4 year contract. When I quit after 2 I had my next department pick up the contract and I signed a new 2 year contract with them.

 

[jks9199]

A four year degree doesn't just mean a certain level of intellect or even education; it can also mean they can do something for four years without quitting. That may not sound like much, but not everyone, regardless of intelligence, can do it. Same for prior military; it is often considered a benefit because the veteran is a known quantity; he or she can take orders, understands discipline, and can make a commitment and stick to it.

Consider that in many states, the local PD has to bear the cost of state peace officer certification. That can cost upwards of $50,000 per officer. A small town with a few dozen police officers (or even fewer) can ill afford to hire someone, have them complete certification at the state-run academy, and then bail for a bigger PD down the road that pays more.

It's not the same everywhere. When I was working in LE in Colorado, we had recruiters come up from Houston PD. Basically if you had 98.6 degrees F and no felony convictions, they'd hire you that day and you'd be wearing a Houston PD badge in a month. Of course, it was also a good way to get killed in those days. I heard Metro-Dade was similar; they'd hire anyone, but they were basically cannon-fodder during the Miami drug wars.

Where I work, a newly hired officer starts at full pay and benefits during the academy. That's 6 months, or about $22000, salary alone. Add benefits and I'd put it somewhere around $30000 total wage costs alone. (That's not considering if they were hired several weeks or months before the academy, which does happen depending their job situation when hired.) Background and hiring process is going to add to those costs; around 8 to 12 hours of a detective sergeant's time for a fairly straightforward candidate, time for HR people involved in the testing and making the list, costs for psych and polygraph exams, medical exams, uniforms and gear, and I'd figure you can probably say that hiring a cop costs $50000 or more for my agency. And I haven't really figured FTO costs (3 months or so where two cops are doing the work of one...)

With that in mind, I'd say that most agencies do their level best as a rule to hire good candidates who are going to work out for the department. The chief in New London has decided that people who are too smart won't work out well. OK. His call, and the court has said it's OK. I don't agree with him, though I can see the court's reasoning. I think anyone, smart or dumb, can get bored sitting in a cruiser. I fault the officer, not the agency. Do the homework, find out what real police work is like, and have realistic expectations. Then -- be creative, and boredom can be solved.