Collusion -- BYOBS

[JP3]

Please forgive me if this has already been hsared here on another thread.

Collusion in Aikido: A Gentleman’s Agreement Taken Too Far by Stanley Pranin

It's Stan Pranin's drafting & experience. I've noted this same problem when I visit other aikido schools, and even other arts with grappling/throwing techniques built-in their systems. If we can agree that standard old judo (as old as it is... it's older than me so that's old) is at the minimum a pretty good grappling and throwing art, I'm surprised more "throwing people" don't understand this: "You can't throw someone who is on-balance."

Break balance, move where they didn't want to move or didn't expect to move, defeat and break down their structure/posture... and throws happen when you enter into the right position. The structure sets up the physics, and gravity makes the throw go.

But... in dojo I've been at ... and time to time in my own when I've neglected to bang the drum "Kuzushi, tsukuri gake, in that order!" I find laziness, which is sort of the fallback position for even well-meaning people in class... they Do get tired after a while, is to cooperate in the training and that leads down a bad road. It might be fun, but believing your own BS can get you in a ton of trouble right quick if challenged.

Thoughts?

 

[oftheherd1]

Please forgive me if this has already been hsared here on another thread.

Collusion in Aikido: A Gentleman’s Agreement Taken Too Far by Stanley Pranin

It's Stan Pranin's drafting & experience. I've noted this same problem when I visit other aikido schools, and even other arts with grappling/throwing techniques built-in their systems. If we can agree that standard old judo (as old as it is... it's older than me so that's old) is at the minimum a pretty good grappling and throwing art, I'm surprised more "throwing people" don't understand this: "You can't throw someone who is on-balance."

Break balance, move where they didn't want to move or didn't expect to move, defeat and break down their structure/posture... and throws happen when you enter into the right position. The structure sets up the physics, and gravity makes the throw go.

But... in dojo I've been at ... and time to time in my own when I've neglected to bang the drum "Kuzushi, tsukuri gake, in that order!" I find laziness, which is sort of the fallback position for even well-meaning people in class... they Do get tired after a while, is to cooperate in the training and that leads down a bad road. It might be fun, but believing your own BS can get you in a ton of trouble right quick if challenged.

Thoughts?

I my experience, throws are easy to breakfall into, so unless the throw is one of those that puts your opponent down at some crazy angle, set up the throw and throw. If the practice opponent can't breakfall, the opponent needs to practice more themselves.

But some techniques require the practice opponent know what is coming, and be given opportunity to go with the flow. If you are only speaking of throws, as it seems, then the first paragraph applies IMHO.

 

[jks9199]

It's a drawback to most forms of partnered practice other than free sparring. (Free sparring has a different form of it...) The partner who feeds an attack that either is out of range, off target, simply a feed and no reaction/response/realistic emphasis... Especially if the partners don't want to let the other "fail" or actually hit the other. So... Uke throws a punch that's slow, massively telegraphed, way off target, and never would have hit nage in the first place. Nage then does their technique, and, of course, it magically works -- whether the technique is a throw, a block/punch, or what have you. And if they never progress beyond that point -- they end up lying to themselves about how effective their skills are.

Many people never progress beyond the easy feed of learning a new technique. Their partner "helps" them by giving them bad practice; as in this article, throwing themselves rather than make their partner take their balance. The solution is easy in principle, but very hard in practice. Uke has to stop "helping." Attacks have to become more and more realistic, making it harder and harder to do the technique. If nage hasn't taken your balance, you don't go over. If the nage doesn't evade the attack properly, uke hits him. People often don't like that sort of training though -- it's scary. And it sometimes hurts.

 

[JP3]

OK, guys & gals, riddle me this....

It seems to be a clear belief, if not understanding, here on MT that in order to gain true competence in yoru system from a efficacy standpoint, meaning your stuff is going to work when you need it to work, you need to actually train it the way you'd need to use it. I am good with that, and agree. With one question.

When do you introduce that to students? How do you introduce that to students in a class where you've got ages from 16 to 65, mix of males and females, all different body types and physical abailities and limitations.

Real questions, everyone. How would you approach it in your own school, if you've got one or if you had one, either way?

 

[jks9199]

Great question. Here's how I do it... Let's use something easy to describe, like a simple step into an attack, collar grab, pull into a knee, and then step back to throw them face down on the ground. (I can't use an aikido technique... I don't train in aikido. )

OK... first step is demonstrate and practice the motions without an opponent. So, student stands in fighting stance, on command, steps forward with a block, moves to the grab, pulls the opponent into the rear leg knee strike, steps back, and mimes pulling down for the throw. After practicing the sequence several times, and getting passable fluidity with it -- we start playing with a partner.

First several times with the partner, it's all passive feed. Uke is pretty much a slightly animated dummy for nage. The attack is scripted, delivered exactly as expected, on command. The next step, we take the command out, but keep the script. Maybe up the speed, and work on eliminating telegraphs in the attack. After working that way for a bit, the pace is definitely picked up -- and the attack may start varying to be less scripted. Uke may not simply stand there "being done unto", and may take advantage of flaws in nage's movements. If nage doesn't block effectively, he gets hit. If his pull into the knee isn't forceful and coordinated with the strike properly, it may get jammed... If the throw motion is all arm, and would be effective -- it's not. As the training escalates, the responses end up looking a lot more like free sparring or rolling than scripted responses.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"You can't throw someone who is on-balance."

- A is on-balance.
- B tries to throw A.
- A resists, or yields.
- B borrows A's resisting, or yielding, reverse the throwing direction, or continue the same throwing direction, and apply the 2nd throw on A.

So when you apply the 1st throw, your opponent may be on-balance. But when you apply the 2nd throw, he may not be on-balance. If he is still on-balance, you borrow his force, and apply your 3rd throw, or your 4th throw.

Here is an example.

- You apply hip throw.
- Your opponent resists.
- You borrow his resistance,
- reverse your throwing direction, and
- use inner hook to throw him.

 

[TSDTexan]

- A is on-balance.
- B tries to throw A.
- A resists, or yields.
- B borrows A's resisting, or yielding, reverse the throwing direction, or continue the same throwing direction, and apply the 2nd throw on A.

So when you apply the 1st throw, your opponent may be on-balance. But when you apply the 2nd throw, he may not be on-balance. If he is still on-balance, you borrow his force, and apply your 3rd throw, or your 4th throw.

Here is an example.

- You apply hip throw.
- Your opponent resists.
- You borrow his resistance,
- reverse your throwing direction, and
- use inner hook to throw him.

Excellent setup for the Ouchi Gari.

In doshinkan, our version of Naifanchin that very technique is used. It's so much like ghost kicking because if it happens you don't know it's coming.

 

[drop bear]

OK, guys & gals, riddle me this....

It seems to be a clear belief, if not understanding, here on MT that in order to gain true competence in yoru system from a efficacy standpoint, meaning your stuff is going to work when you need it to work, you need to actually train it the way you'd need to use it. I am good with that, and agree. With one question.

When do you introduce that to students? How do you introduce that to students in a class where you've got ages from 16 to 65, mix of males and females, all different body types and physical abailities and limitations.

Real questions, everyone. How would you approach it in your own school, if you've got one or if you had one, either way?

If you had some sort of desparate mix. You do limited sparring drills.

Can one student take the others back, secure an arm for three seconds, lif a leg.

The knife stuff in competition looks pretty good as well. Foam knife means strikes dont really hurt.

 

[JP3]

- A is on-balance.
- B tries to throw A.
- A resists, or yields.
- B borrows A's resisting, or yielding, reverse the throwing direction, or continue the same throwing direction, and apply the 2nd throw on A.

So when you apply the 1st throw, your opponent may be on-balance. But when you apply the 2nd throw, he may not be on-balance. If he is still on-balance, you borrow his force, and apply your 3rd throw, or your 4th throw.

Here is an example.

- You apply hip throw.
- Your opponent resists.
- You borrow his resistance,
- reverse your throwing direction, and
- use inner hook to throw him.

Fantastic, Wang.... you've just taught the 1st day of judo class.

You effect the guy/gal with the attempt at throwing him/her, it doesn't work because he/she's on balance, but it does force them to react. Reaction is unplanned movement, i.e. kuzushi... and can be used to throw them with.

One of the simpler ones is enter hard for a single-leg reap (Osoto-gari) Maybe you get the kuzushi, maybe you don't. But, let's say you get the position, and try to throw them backward. They are able to step back and off that throw... right into the shoulder throw that's right there waiting (Ippon-seoinage), or Taiotoshi, or Harai-goshi, or O-guruma or... you get the point. Do the one that fits the pairing and position.

 

[JP3]

Great question. Here's how I do it... Let's use something easy to describe, like a simple step into an attack, collar grab, pull into a knee, and then step back to throw them face down on the ground. (I can't use an aikido technique... I don't train in aikido. )

OK... first step is demonstrate and practice the motions without an opponent. So, student stands in fighting stance, on command, steps forward with a block, moves to the grab, pulls the opponent into the rear leg knee strike, steps back, and mimes pulling down for the throw. After practicing the sequence several times, and getting passable fluidity with it -- we start playing with a partner.

First several times with the partner, it's all passive feed. Uke is pretty much a slightly animated dummy for nage. The attack is scripted, delivered exactly as expected, on command. The next step, we take the command out, but keep the script. Maybe up the speed, and work on eliminating telegraphs in the attack. After working that way for a bit, the pace is definitely picked up -- and the attack may start varying to be less scripted. Uke may not simply stand there "being done unto", and may take advantage of flaws in nage's movements. If nage doesn't block effectively, he gets hit. If his pull into the knee isn't forceful and coordinated with the strike properly, it may get jammed... If the throw motion is all arm, and would be effective -- it's not. As the training escalates, the responses end up looking a lot more like free sparring or rolling than scripted responses.

I'm good with the escalation of drill towards a more like randori/free sparring environment. What I'm asking about is amping up after the light randori into stuff where folks can get a bloody nose, bruises that they can show their friends (or are ashamed to be seen with in public), run the risk (however slight) of actually getting a fracture if things go off script... in other words, working towards combative reality in a school environment containing a disparate mix of gender, age, body sizes and personality/mentality and reasons for even being there.

Go a way along the road to reality, you attract a type of person, but you run off others on the way. It's a balancing act. It's why there are so many Pooh-bear dojos out there, people don't "really" want to learn to fight, they want an illusion of self-comfidence and competence they can use to lie to themselves with.

Man, that sounded cynical.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm good with the escalation of drill towards a more like randori/free sparring environment. What I'm asking about is amping up after the light randori into stuff where folks can get a bloody nose, bruises that they can show their friends (or are ashamed to be seen with in public), run the risk (however slight) of actually getting a fracture if things go off script... in other words, working towards combative reality in a school environment containing a disparate mix of gender, age, body sizes and personality/mentality and reasons for even being there.

Go a way along the road to reality, you attract a type of person, but you run off others on the way. It's a balancing act. It's why there are so many Pooh-bear dojos out there, people don't "really" want to learn to fight, they want an illusion of self-comfidence and competence they can use to lie to themselves with.

Man, that sounded cynical.

Truth Is an ugly hammer that smashes pretty lies. Truth is the ultimate ego check.

The truth is (as i see it) people are not so much victims of the McDojo.

The judgement of truth is that the McDojo is the reflection of a culture that is narcissistic and egocentric, driven by pride, materialism and instant gratification.

Perseverance through genuinely hard and repetitive work... and zero recognition (accolades) for it, are antithetical to the common type of person who finds a lot of enjoyment in the McDojo.

They were victims, created by their culture before they ever entered the school. The McDojo only makes it obvious.

The 1 am reality check does more to reveal the Emperor's new cloths than about anything else.

But some will survive the rude awakening, accept the learning experience, develop questions and seek real answers to the problem of violence.

Most, however will return to the McDojo thinking the failure was theirs alone, and not a broken art with flawed methods and an incomplete curriculum.

 

[TSDTexan]

If you had some sort of desparate mix. You do limited sparring drills.

Can one student take the others back, secure an arm for three seconds, lif a leg.

The knife stuff in competition looks pretty good as well. Foam knife means strikes dont really hurt.

Only thrusts?

In that case, sub the foam knife for a tazzzzer! Or the less lethal stun gun.

 

[TSDTexan]

.

 

[jks9199]

I'm good with the escalation of drill towards a more like randori/free sparring environment. What I'm asking about is amping up after the light randori into stuff where folks can get a bloody nose, bruises that they can show their friends (or are ashamed to be seen with in public), run the risk (however slight) of actually getting a fracture if things go off script... in other words, working towards combative reality in a school environment containing a disparate mix of gender, age, body sizes and personality/mentality and reasons for even being there.

Go a way along the road to reality, you attract a type of person, but you run off others on the way. It's a balancing act. It's why there are so many Pooh-bear dojos out there, people don't "really" want to learn to fight, they want an illusion of self-comfidence and competence they can use to lie to themselves with.

Man, that sounded cynical.

That's exactly where it leads. Done at an advanced level, with skilled practitioners, a "scripted drill" might well look like a free for all. And if someone makes a mistake, it shows. Sometimes in blood.

Every training exercise has one or more flaws built into it. How do I know this? Because you aren't (I hope!) sending training partners to the hospital on a daily basis. And if you're telling me that's the end goal of your training -- then every time you do something that doesn't end that way, you're lying to yourself. Or you're exploiting a flaw to keep training... Nothing wrong with doing that knowingly. I'll balance flaws in exercises. In a scripted scenario, one of the flaws is that the initial attack and response are known... In practicing combinations against pads or bags -- they don't hit back, and they don't really move or react like people. Free sparring and randori begin at a known time, possibly with known roles, and agreements on how hard you're going to go, and -- I personally think this is one of the biggest & most ignored for people training for self defense -- you deliberately enter into range, do your thing, exit, then repeat (why that's bad for self defense training is an exercise left to the student )... I love Rory Miller's One Step exercise; it uses time/pace/speed as a flaw to allow you to use the body dynamics, targeting, etc. fully. But it's speed is artificial... and so is the turn-taking.

But, for a commercial business -- well, you gotta pay the bills. And lots of students don't want to explain a black eye or swollen lip at work the next day. They may not even want "realistic self defense training"; they may want a taste of another culture, or sport training, or just "a thing to do on Tuesday and Thursday"...

 

[Juany118]

Only thrusts?

In that case, sub the foam knife for a tazzzzer! Or the less lethal stun gun.
View attachment 20701

Or this...

Shocknife®

 

[drop bear]

That's exactly where it leads. Done at an advanced level, with skilled practitioners, a "scripted drill" might well look like a free for all. And if someone makes a mistake, it shows. Sometimes in blood.

Every training exercise has one or more flaws built into it. How do I know this? Because you aren't (I hope!) sending training partners to the hospital on a daily basis. And if you're telling me that's the end goal of your training -- then every time you do something that doesn't end that way, you're lying to yourself. Or you're exploiting a flaw to keep training... Nothing wrong with doing that knowingly. I'll balance flaws in exercises. In a scripted scenario, one of the flaws is that the initial attack and response are known... In practicing combinations against pads or bags -- they don't hit back, and they don't really move or react like people. Free sparring and randori begin at a known time, possibly with known roles, and agreements on how hard you're going to go, and -- I personally think this is one of the biggest & most ignored for people training for self defense -- you deliberately enter into range, do your thing, exit, then repeat (why that's bad for self defense training is an exercise left to the student )... I love Rory Miller's One Step exercise; it uses time/pace/speed as a flaw to allow you to use the body dynamics, targeting, etc. fully. But it's speed is artificial... and so is the turn-taking.

But, for a commercial business -- well, you gotta pay the bills. And lots of students don't want to explain a black eye or swollen lip at work the next day. They may not even want "realistic self defense training"; they may want a taste of another culture, or sport training, or just "a thing to do on Tuesday and Thursday"...

People don't spar or fight like that because it is competition. They fight like that because that is what works best for them.

 

[JP3]

My thread rises from the past. There's some good perspectives in this one!

 

[Buka]

My thread rises from the past. There's some good perspectives in this one!

There sure are, bro.