Circular punch

[Kung Fu Wang]

This kind of circular punches doesn't exist in many MA systems. Why?

Your thought?

 

[punisher73]

It does in Jow Ga(r), but that has close roots to CLF and some other northern styles.

In karate, there is a similar move (heavily based on style) called a ridge hand that is sometimes done in that circular manner.

 

[skribs]

This kind of circular punches doesn't exist in many MA systems. Why?

Your thought?

Several reasons:

• Slower than a less-looping punch
• Leave you much wider open
• Not as powerful as a punch that actuates the elbow (I've tested this motion on my StrikeMeter and it did not perform well)

The way I see it, techniques are "balanced" around how fast they are, how strong they are, and how defensive you remain while using them. This type of technique pretty much fails at all three. It could be used:

• To get around a person's guard. But a less-looping punch can do that too, or if their guard is that far out, a straight punch will be better.
• To get around an obstacle (for example, if they have grabbed your friend and are behind them). This is a very niche use.
• To loop around and set up a grab, which a less-looping punch can do, too.

Better techniques include:

• Long range hook, which loops just enough outside the guard but is otherwise thrown similar to a straight punch
• Inverted back fist, in which the hand will follow a similar circular motion, but from the elbow instead of the shoulder
• Inward hammerfist/chop, which will start chambered and give you a faster, more linear motion

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It can be a good tool to be used in street fight that you have to deal with multiple opponents.

 

[Argus]

Several reasons:

• Slower than a less-looping punch
• Leave you much wider open
• Not as powerful as a punch that actuates the elbow (I've tested this motion on my StrikeMeter and it did not perform well)

The way I see it, techniques are "balanced" around how fast they are, how strong they are, and how defensive you remain while using them. This type of technique pretty much fails at all three. It could be used:

• To get around a person's guard. But a less-looping punch can do that too, or if their guard is that far out, a straight punch will be better.
• To get around an obstacle (for example, if they have grabbed your friend and are behind them). This is a very niche use.
• To loop around and set up a grab, which a less-looping punch can do, too.

Better techniques include:

• Long range hook, which loops just enough outside the guard but is otherwise thrown similar to a straight punch
• Inverted back fist, in which the hand will follow a similar circular motion, but from the elbow instead of the shoulder
• Inward hammerfist/chop, which will start chambered and give you a faster, more linear motion

This is my impression as well, but I'd love to hear from someone who does an art that utilizes this kind of punch as to why they use it. Maybe some CLF guy could comment.

I've learned to become more humble over the years, because I might be judging things by the wrong criteria, or just simply missing something central concept for a given art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd love to hear from someone who does an art that utilizes this kind of punch as to why they use it.

This is from the long fist system point of view.

- You throw a back fist, your opponent blocks it.
- You change your back fist into a grab and pull.
- You then throw an over hook with the other arm.

At 0.30 - 0.40.

- You are in a group fight.
- You use circular punches to create space.
- You then back up away from your opponents.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Slower than a less-looping punch

Having thrown a lot of these things speed isn't as big of an issue as one may think. There are things about circular punches that decreases the response time of the person that I'm attacking. If I can decrease your response time, then there's no need to be faster than a jab. The picture below shows me using a punch similar to the video that Wang Posted. This is a screen shot from a video of me sparring around 40% speed and power. There's no way my partner can punch me with a reverse punch before I hit him.

At this point the punching technique that I'm using has decreased his reaction time. If you look at my right hand you can see that the glove is blurred, the blur is due to the motion of my second punch. I have already started my punch while my opponent has not.

My opponent now sees the punch that he didn't see before. You can see there is a considerable amount of blur on my arm. This means it's traveling faster than it was when it was by my leg. There are 2 thing (actually 3 but I'll focus on 2).
1. I'm about to punch his face with my right hand. Because of how circular punches travel it's difficult to know where they are going.
2. While my fist is on the way to his face my left foot is moving into position to kick.

This is where the delay in his reaction came in. In practice and drill, Go to any Jow Ga school, Hung ga schoo or Choy Li Fut school and you see a variation of this punch. Normally based on training this punch should be a "Pow Choy" (phonetic)

(The video below)This is how the "Pow Choy" (phonetic) is practiced. This is what he was expecting, but instead of sending the energy into an upper cut. I allow it continue to rise toward his head. In the picture of bove you can see that my glove still has some blur on it. My opponent guarding arm is in focus. At this point, I'm not sure if he sees the punch or if it's traveling outside of his field of vision.

Here is the punch after I redirected it. I saw that he was going to eat it, so I just let it go high instead of hitting him in the jaw. At this speed there is no way I can pull this punch without hurting myself. It would be like driving a car forward then slamming the gears into reverse. You can also see that all of this happened before my left foot could land.

Leave you much wider open

Yes but not really. If you follow the techniques that are taught then you aren't open. The techniques just make you look open so that the opponent changes his mind, by the time you see that you think I'm open, something else is already on the way. You won't be able to block it because you are focused on trying to hit my "open defense" instead of dealing with the on coming attack.

For example: I looked open in all of these pictures but he has yet to take advantage of it. He sees one opening which gives him tunnel vision causing him to miss what's incoming. The picture above looks like I'm open, but I'm not. I'm actually transitioning into a kick that started before I landed the punch.

Here's the next frame. My punch lands on the top of his hand and causes his head to turn. This changes his field of vision so at this moment in the picture I'm kicking into his blind spot and he doesn't even know it. Again I have delayed his reaction time. The really interesting thing about this picture is How much I've done, and my partner's feet have barely left his spot. By the way , That's not a punch that he's doing. That's left over from the guard he tried to put up.
I look open here, and if he could punch me then that means his gut would still be open to my kick. The only ammo he has load is his right hand that's chambered.

Here the kick lands on his ribs. I actually was able to pull this kick because I saw that he was going to be able to block it before my kick left the ground. This would have broken his ribs had I kicked full force. Here you can see my guard up. He actually tries to punch, but the kick drained reverse punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not as powerful as a punch that actuates the elbow

These are actually about as powerful a punch that you are going to get. If you aren't getting any serious power of the punch then it's because you aren't connecting all the points of energy that you need to generate power in the punch.

I'll put it this way. There's enough power in this punch form me to knock a guy off balance even if I don't hit them with the end of the punch.

To get around a person's guard. But a less-looping punch can do that too, or if their guard is that far out, a straight punch will be better.

Long arm techniques don't care about getting around the guard. When schools train them, they actually train them to punish the guard. If I'm fighting Jow Ga vs Jow Ga, then I'm going to be sneaky, because they know the punch. If I'm fighting Jow Ga vs something else then I'm going to destroy the guard. Because I know that your forearms are probably less conditioned compared to mine. So I'll use that to my advantage. After a few strikes to your arms, you won't have a guard. If you catch on to what I'm doing then I'll switch it up on you. But by default all schools that use those types of punches take pride in beating the mess out of someone's guard. I'm not sure if you seen videos of me sparring with this guy, but you'll see him blasting away at my guard. If he can't get to my head then he'll take my arms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It can be a good tool to be used in street fight that you have to deal with multiple opponents.

This is an understatement. It's really good against multiple attackers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This kind of circular punches doesn't exist in many MA systems. Why?

Easy. 6 million ways fight choose one.

A circular punching system is very rooted. You will be like a tank. Linear systems allow you to move much faster on your feet. Circular punches require that you have a good root so you aren't looking like this guy. So much force can be generated with punches like this, that it will throw you off balance if you aren't rooted.

I think most systems developed more along a linear method because of the speed. A boxer can learn to be faster at a linear punch then a kung fu student can learn to be faster at a circular systems. There are very few working parts that a linear system needs in order to be fast. In a circular system you'll have to have a good root before any speed can be generated. In a linear system, you are more likely to be light on your feet with very little root in comparison.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can

- use a circular punch to knock down a straight punch. The circular punch can be used for both offense and defense.

- not use a straight punch to knock down a circular punch. The straight punch can only be used for offense. It cannot be used for defense.

 

[Flying Crane]

Circular punches like that, if done right, will tear your head off. Really powerful stuff.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Circular punches like that, if done right, will tear your head off. Really powerful stuff.

Agree! It includes a full body rotation. IMO, to use full body rotation in circular punch is much easier than to use hip rotation in straight punch.

In another thread, people discuss the use of SW. Should one use full body rotation in circular punch? The answer is yes. There will be no argument on that at all.

I like his 45 degree downward circular punch, and 45 degree upward circular punch. It's more effective than just simple horizontal circular punch. A 45 degree downward circular punch can be changed into either a head lock, or a spiral punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

o use full body rotation in circular punch is much easier than to use hip rotation in straight punch.

I think it's just easy for you because of your experience. You've been in Martial Arts for a long time. The students I taught and train had a really difficult time with using the body. That experience with the students makes me think that it's really difficult for some.

For those who many not be familiar. Below is a visual about using full body rotation in a thrust punch.

The best thing about using the body to power a punch is that it's mobile. I don't have to be stationary like a person does when they Pivot on the ball of the foot. The two picture below highlight whole body use very well

This picture shows me getting ready to deliver a thrust punch. In order to see the energy of me moving forward you'll have to look at my left foot and my left pants leg. You can see that my pants leg have little or no motion. There's almost no blur on the raised leg and no blur on my standing leg. My left heel is planted. My right foot also has very little blur. My right hand is starting to chamber. You can tell by how the shirt is against my triceps. Focus on the sock on my left foot.

Here you can see that I'm in a high chamber for those who think high chamber punches are never used. It is moving forward by this point as you can see the shirt lift away from my triceps. My left leg is still with no motion except a little at the hip. If you look at the sock on my left leg, you can tell that my pants leg is about the same distance from my shoe. The front foot has a lot of blur as I begin my forward movement.

As my foot hits the floor, the back of my pants hit the back of my right leg (front leg) from the forward motion (which is why the bottom of the pants leg looks thinner) . What happens next is like sitting in the back seat of a car with no seat belt on and you crash the front of the car into something. Keep an eye on my left foot. Notice there is little motion in the pants leg by my foot.

My punch lands to the left of his head because I had to redirect it. I didn't miss his head. I probably would have knocked him out with this had I thrown it right into his face. You can see how much my punch travels by his head. You can tell that I'm pulling it back because of how my upper body leans back instead of flowing forward.. Some days I wish I would have just let it ride and let it land. But that's for another story for another time.

The part that tells the story is my left sock. You can now see that my pants leg has moved forward and upward. From this angle the upward movement of my pants leg looks like it's moving the same direction of my punch. My stance is about the same distance as it was when I planted my foot. The reason my pants legs move forward is because of the energy created by my body moving forward. The reason why my pants legs isn't baggy on the left leg now is because it slammed into the back of my leg. It's like a car accident. When a car suddenly stops everything that's not being held down will fly to the front.

For those who aren't familiar with this look at some 1970's crash test dummy commercials about seat belts. In real life kids in the back seat would sometimes be smashed into the front windshield and die. This is the same thing that is going on with my pants leg. You can also see that my heel is in a different place as it moved with the rotation of my body as I punched

Just in case there is any doubt this is what my pants leg looks like when I started to back up. No more forward motion, no more sock.

 

[Flying Crane]

Agree! It includes a full body rotation. IMO, to use full body rotation in circular punch is much easier than to use hip rotation in straight punch.

In another thread, people discuss the use of SW. Should one use full body rotation in circular punch? The answer is yes. There will be no argument on that at all.

I like his 45 degree downward circular punch, and 45 degree upward circular punch. It's more effective than just simple horizontal circular punch. A 45 degree downward circular punch can be changed into either a head lock, or a spiral punch.

I think hip rotation is just another variant of full body rotation. If it’s driven from the feet and the torso rotates with the hip, then it’s full body, just on a shorter scale. I tend to see this on a continuum. Complete and big full-body on one end, just shoulder and arm on the other. And lots in between.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it's just easy for you because of your experience. You've been in Martial Arts for a long time. The students I taught and train had a really difficult time with using the body. That experience with the students makes me think that it's really difficult for some.

From what I’ve seen, I wonder if a lot of systems haven’t created a systematic approach to training it. It’s discussed and described, and then just “see, throw the punch and move like this.”

I think it is hard for most students to really get it that way. There needs to be a way to break down the concept into smaller components that can be drilled and repeated in order to instill the physical memory and understand what it really is.

 

[skribs]

This is from the long fist system point of view.

- You throw a back fist, your opponent blocks it.
- You change your back fist into a grab and pull.
- You then throw an over hook with the other arm.

At 0.30 - 0.40.

- You are in a group fight.
- You use circular punches to create space.
- You then back up away from your opponents.

This is why forms are just called dances by a lot of arts, especially the more flashy kung fu forms.

Having thrown a lot of these things speed isn't as big of an issue as one may think. There are things about circular punches that decreases the response time of the person that I'm attacking. If I can decrease your response time, then there's no need to be faster than a jab. The picture below shows me using a punch similar to the video that Wang Posted. This is a screen shot from a video of me sparring around 40% speed and power. There's no way my partner can punch me with a reverse punch before I hit him.

I'm going to call BS on this. Going at 40% there's no way to hit you with a straight punch? You're posting stills to back this up instead of video. It also looks like you're throwing a long hook instead of a circular punch.

The circular punch is the type of punch that TKD and Karate get a lot of flack for being the only type of punch they expect an opponent to throw. You know...one that is telegraphed, has a wide angle that makes it slow, and then hangs there for a second without retracting the arm (which makes it easy to grab the arm).

Yes but not really. If you follow the techniques that are taught then you aren't open. The techniques just make you look open so that the opponent changes his mind, by the time you see that you think I'm open, something else is already on the way. You won't be able to block it because you are focused on trying to hit my "open defense" instead of dealing with the on coming attack.

Um...what? Your opponent has ample time to block, and then counter-attack because these punches tend to not retract as fast. Or he can counter before you hit. If you're basing it on "my opponent has so many choices he doesn't know what to do and gets stuck analyzing it", then that's bad. Anyone who is trained in a sport art is just going to throw a straight or a teep and get you before you land the punch. Anyone who takes a TMA is going to block and counter-attack.

Unless your system is, "I'm going to fight so badly I'll lull my opponent into letting their guard down, and that's how I will hit them." Which is basically what you described.

These are actually about as powerful a punch that you are going to get. If you aren't getting any serious power of the punch then it's because you aren't connecting all the points of energy that you need to generate power in the punch.

Like I said, I've tested it on a strike meter. The wide, circular motion was nowhere near what the straighter punches were.

The wide motion limits the rotational velocity. By not actuating the elbow, you're isolating the muscles that are being used. This uses a similar motion as the chest fly. The standards for chest fly on a 200-pound person range from 19 pounds (beginner) to 124 pounds (elite). The standards for dumbell bench press (the motion used in a straighter punch) are 45 to 176 pounds.

If you're knocking people with the wide punch, you'll hit them harder with the straighter punch.

This seems like a classic example of "good is the enemy of great." If it works, you assume it can't be improved upon.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is why forms are just called dances by a lot of arts, especially the more flashy kung fu forms.



I'm going to call BS on this. Going at 40% there's no way to hit you with a straight punch? You're posting stills to back this up instead of video. It also looks like you're throwing a long hook instead of a circular punch.

The circular punch is the type of punch that TKD and Karate get a lot of flack for being the only type of punch they expect an opponent to throw. You know...one that is telegraphed, has a wide angle that makes it slow, and then hangs there for a second without retracting the arm (which makes it easy to grab the arm).



Um...what? Your opponent has ample time to block, and then counter-attack because these punches tend to not retract as fast. Or he can counter before you hit. If you're basing it on "my opponent has so many choices he doesn't know what to do and gets stuck analyzing it", then that's bad. Anyone who is trained in a sport art is just going to throw a straight or a teep and get you before you land the punch. Anyone who takes a TMA is going to block and counter-attack.

Unless your system is, "I'm going to fight so badly I'll lull my opponent into letting their guard down, and that's how I will hit them." Which is basically what you described.



Like I said, I've tested it on a strike meter. The wide, circular motion was nowhere near what the straighter punches were.

The wide motion limits the rotational velocity. By not actuating the elbow, you're isolating the muscles that are being used. This uses a similar motion as the chest fly. The standards for chest fly on a 200-pound person range from 19 pounds (beginner) to 124 pounds (elite). The standards for dumbell bench press (the motion used in a straighter punch) are 45 to 176 pounds.

If you're knocking people with the wide punch, you'll hit them harder with the straighter punch.

This seems like a classic example of "good is the enemy of great." If it works, you assume it can't be improved upon.

With all due respect, I do not believe that you understand circular punches as they are done in Southern Chinese martial arts. That is ok because it is something you have not studied. So it is not a dig at you.

I remember your thread where you tested strikes on a force meter (I don’t remember the proper name of the device). I don’t trust the results you got for those of strikes that you don’t train on a regular basis. My recollection is that you were trying some strikes that you were working from intuition, and not from a basis of long-term training and instruction. That is going to give you results that may be true for you, but not reflective of what others can do with the strikes. In a nutshell, some of the strikes you tested, you simply are not skilled with. So it is not surprising that your results were poor, when compared with other strikes in which you are more skilled.

 

[geezer]

My primary empty hand training is in Wing Chun, a short-bridge, linear southern Chinese martial art but I have to agree with Crane and Jow Ga. Those long-bridge, circular punches properly executed generate a lot of power. Moreover, when it comes to how much useful damage a technique an do, I'm not sure how far I would trust a "StrikeMeter" reading. I've never used one, but from what I've seen, there are a lot more variables involved besides what a device like that might measure.

BTW when dealing with multiple attackers, even in a "linear style" like Wing Chun we often fall back on flailing fak-sau and man-sau strikes which have a long reach and a somewhat circular quality, and a similar whipping force augmented by body rotation. Heck even a standard karate/mma spinning backfist is similar in concept.

To sum it up, I wouldn't underestimate these circular, whipping long-bridge strikes when dealt by an experienced fighter!

 

[geezer]

...If you're knocking people with the wide punch, you'll hit them harder with the straighter punch.

The best punch is the one that lands. Sometimes the unexpected works better just by the element of surprise. In many systems, whipping, circular, long-bridge punches are just one tool in a diverse arsenal.