Chun Kuk Do

[sinthetik_mistik]

the martial art Chuck Norris invented. anyone know anything about it? i know it is based off of Tang Soo Do, which Norris has a 9th degree black belt in. that's about all i know about it. just curious.

 

[Mitlov]

I train in it right now (for about a year so far), and have a background in taekwondo and Shotokan karate (three years in taekwondo, followed by about three years in Shotokan).

CKD feels very much like Shotokan karate with a dash of pre-Olympic taekwondo. Compared to Shotokan, it has some some minor mechanical differences, more pad work and sparring, and less emphasis on forms application/interpretation (bunkai). Colored belt forms include the Heian/Pinan forms (here called "Pyong An") and Bassai. Competition sparring is light contact point stop.

Anything in particular you want to know?

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

I train in it right now (for about a year so far), and have a background in taekwondo and Shotokan karate (three years in taekwondo, followed by about three years in Shotokan).

CKD feels very much like Shotokan karate with a dash of pre-Olympic taekwondo. Compared to Shotokan, it has some some minor mechanical differences, more pad work and sparring, and less emphasis on forms application/interpretation (bunkai). Colored belt forms include the Heian/Pinan forms (here called "Pyong An") and Bassai. Competition sparring is light contact point stop.

Anything in particular you want to know?

cool, thanks for the info. sounds like a cool martial art. i like the fact that it has more emphasis on padwork and less emphasis on forms. there may be people on this site who strongly disagree with me but I never saw the purpose of forms to be honest. i thought i read that it has ground game?

 

[Mitlov]

Personally, we've worked some takedowns and basic chokes and joint locks, but that's about that I've seen so far (but I'm just a year in, and different schools may have different emphases). Our live, resistant work is all striking-based, not grappling-based, at least that I've personally done.

I know Mr. Norris has cross-trained in BJJ, but I suspect the amount of emphasis that receives varies a lot depending on the particular school. My program, at least what I've seen so far, is very much focused on the striking-centric subject matter I associate with karate, tang soo do, taekwondo, etc.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Personally, we've worked some takedowns and basic chokes and joint locks, but that's about that I've seen so far (but I'm just a year in, and different schools may have different emphases). Our live, resistant work is all striking-based, not grappling-based, at least that I've personally done.

I know Mr. Norris has cross-trained in BJJ, but I suspect the amount of emphasis that receives varies a lot depending on the particular school. My program, at least what I've seen so far, is very much focused on the striking-centric subject matter I associate with karate, tang soo do, taekwondo, etc.

cool. thanks again for the info

 

[wingchun100]

cool, thanks for the info. sounds like a cool martial art. i like the fact that it has more emphasis on padwork and less emphasis on forms. there may be people on this site who strongly disagree with me but I never saw the purpose of forms to be honest. i thought i read that it has ground game?

I feel forms have their place, although they should mainly be saved for the student's "homework," and when they come in for testing. Group class time should be spent practicing techniques against other students. There's no other way to learn timing, distance, footwork, reflexes, etc. I just started teaching Wing Chun, and in my curriculum there won't ever be any belt testing, but the only class time devoted to forms will be (1) when I am teaching a student a new section, or (2) if a student has any questions, or (3) if a student asks me to watch their form for tips.

 

[Mitlov]

Just to be clear, there are still forms in CKD and they're mandatory for testing and part of competition. But in my experience with JKA Shotokan karate, forms were 40-60% of training time and were considered a vehicle for learning a variety of practical techniques that are alternative explanations for each movement (bunkai--the concept that certain "blocks" are actually strikes, that "strikes" may actually be throws, etc). This emphasis on bunkai is in addition to forms being used to teach basic mechanics (hip rotation, synchronization of hand with foot, etc) and being a performance art that's an end in and of itself.

In CKD, we have a more limited catalogue of forms, in my experience they're probably 15-20% of class time, and the bunkai aspect of forms practice is only minimally present, if at all. There's a candid acknowledgement that a real aspect of forms practice is making it look good for performance/competition purposes, and this is not necessarily how you'd want to perform techniques against a live opponent. The more advanced forms in CKD (the various UFAF forms) are definitely flashier than anything I saw in Shotokan and are competition focused. For example, here's UFAF Form 2:

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Just to be clear, there are still forms in CKD and they're mandatory for testing and part of competition. But in my experience with JKA Shotokan karate, forms were 40-60% of training time and were considered a vehicle for learning a variety of practical techniques that are alternative explanations for each movement (bunkai--the concept that certain "blocks" are actually strikes, that "strikes" may actually be throws, etc). This emphasis on bunkai is in addition to forms being used to teach basic mechanics (hip rotation, synchronization of hand with foot, etc) and being a performance art that's an end in and of itself

In CKD, we have a more limited catalogue of forms, in my experience they're probably 15-20% of class time, and the bunkai aspect of forms practice is only minimally present, if at all. There's a candid acknowledgement that a real aspect of forms practice is making it look good for performance/competition purposes, and this is not necessarily how you'd want to perform techniques against a live opponent. The more advanced forms in CKD (the various UFAF forms) are definitely flashier than anything I saw in Shotokan and are competition focused. For example, here's UFAF Form 2:

nice video thanks. I remember learning forms when I was taking Taekwondo. i don't know how many forms there are exactly but i feel like I'd get confused after a while.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Just to be clear, there are still forms in CKD and they're mandatory for testing and part of competition. But in my experience with JKA Shotokan karate, forms were 40-60% of training time and were considered a vehicle for learning a variety of practical techniques that are alternative explanations for each movement (bunkai--the concept that certain "blocks" are actually strikes, that "strikes" may actually be throws, etc). This emphasis on bunkai is in addition to forms being used to teach basic mechanics (hip rotation, synchronization of hand with foot, etc) and being a performance art that's an end in and of itself.

In CKD, we have a more limited catalogue of forms, in my experience they're probably 15-20% of class time, and the bunkai aspect of forms practice is only minimally present, if at all. There's a candid acknowledgement that a real aspect of forms practice is making it look good for performance/competition purposes, and this is not necessarily how you'd want to perform techniques against a live opponent. The more advanced forms in CKD (the various UFAF forms) are definitely flashier than anything I saw in Shotokan and are competition focused. For example, here's UFAF Form 2:

interestingly enough Chuck Norris created not one but two variations of Tang Soo Do. one is American Tang Soo Do, the other is Chun Kuk Do (which apparently changed it's name to the Chuck Norris System)

 

[skribs]

I am of two minds regarding homework primarily being forms, and classwork being primarily partner work.

On the one hand, I agree that forms are easier to do on your own than partner drills...well, partner drills are impossible to do on your own, but you can simulate a lot of it if you have a good enough imagination. So I see the potential for optimization there.

However, my experience with almost anything I've ever done is that you don't learn everything right the first time. For example, I'm testing for my 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo next month, and there are still things I learn from my Master when I'm helping out in the white belt classes (little details I hadn't picked up before). I also know that many, many people don't fully understand their own limitations or lack of understanding. These students might not know which questions to ask, or might not even know they need to ask for help.

Then again, I know forms are used very differently from art to art, and that might play into how much class time should be devoted to them.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

I am of two minds regarding homework primarily being forms, and classwork being primarily partner work.

On the one hand, I agree that forms are easier to do on your own than partner drills...well, partner drills are impossible to do on your own, but you can simulate a lot of it if you have a good enough imagination. So I see the potential for optimization there.

However, my experience with almost anything I've ever done is that you don't learn everything right the first time. For example, I'm testing for my 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo next month, and there are still things I learn from my Master when I'm helping out in the white belt classes (little details I hadn't picked up before). I also know that many, many people don't fully understand their own limitations or lack of understanding. These students might not know which questions to ask, or might not even know they need to ask for help.

Then again, I know forms are used very differently from art to art, and that might play into how much class time should be devoted to them.

i understand what you mean... i've been to martial arts schools where the main prerequisite for advancing from one belt to another is memorizing the forms. i'm not anti forms necessarily but i think sometimes and in some schools a little too much emphasis is placed on that. i think in some schools they don't spend enough time helping students perfect the technique. this can lead to black belts who have sloppy technique. when i was taking Taekwondo one of my instructors even admitted that when he first got his black belt he did not really know how to kick or fight properly. i can't remember what he did to fix that but he did... i saw him throwing roundhouse kicks like Jean Claude Van Damme. but yeah i think handing out black belts to students who really aren't at a black belt level of technique, power and speed is one of the main reasons a lot of people now say that traditional martial arts are weak or inferior

 

[skribs]

i understand what you mean... i've been to martial arts schools where the main prerequisite for advancing from one belt to another is memorizing the forms. i'm not anti forms necessarily but i think sometimes and in some schools a little too much emphasis is placed on that. i think in some schools they don't spend enough time helping students perfect the technique. this can lead to black belts who have sloppy technique. when i was taking Taekwondo one of my instructors even admitted that when he first got his black belt he did not really know how to kick or fight properly. i can't remember what he did to fix that but he did... i saw him throwing roundhouse kicks like Jean Claude Van Damme. but yeah i think handing out black belts to students who really aren't at a black belt level of technique, power and speed is one of the main reasons a lot of people now say that traditional martial arts are weak or inferior

That's not what I'm talking about.

In Taekwondo, for example, the forms aren't really there to teach you the techniques. They serve the purpose of looking good, as well as building almost exaggerated versions of the techniques to isolate certain movements. They're more about body control than anything else. In our Taekwondo curriculum, we are almost always told to slow down during our form. We're supposed to have explosive technique (or as we say "snap power") but we're not supposed to rush from one technique to the next, but we're supposed to pause after each move or combination to show our proper stance and control.

This gave one of our students a really hard time, who had come from a Kung Fu school, where the goal was to get through the form in a single breath by doing it as fast as possible. Whereas in our school, we are taught to breathe with every single technique, even if we aren't kiyhaping.

My experience is obviously Taekwondo, but as I mentioned above - the goal of our forms primarily is to build the body control. For this, you need a lot of instruction on how exactly your body is supposed to be controlled. For other arts, the forms are mostly a way to practice drills by yourself that normally require another person. The motions and timings in these forms are less exaggerated and more like the actual drills. It would be silly to spend too much time on these in class, since the drills themselves would be better.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In Taekwondo, for example, the forms aren't really there to teach you the techniques.

Based on conversations with people who have been involved in TKD since it's origins, and who were involved when the forms were developed, I'm going to say that this statement is incorrect.
While there is certainly more to forms than just doing techniques, one of the purposes of forms practice is absolutely to teach techniques.

 

[skribs]

Based on conversations with people who have been involved in TKD since it's origins, and who were involved when the forms were developed, I'm going to say that this statement is incorrect.
While there is certainly more to forms than just doing techniques, one of the purposes of forms practice is absolutely to teach techniques.

I'm not saying you don't learn anything from the form. But in general, the form serves to polish techniques instead of to teach new ones.

We may just be arguing semantics.

 

[mrt2]

That's not what I'm talking about.

In Taekwondo, for example, the forms aren't really there to teach you the techniques. They serve the purpose of looking good, as well as building almost exaggerated versions of the techniques to isolate certain movements. They're more about body control than anything else. In our Taekwondo curriculum, we are almost always told to slow down during our form. We're supposed to have explosive technique (or as we say "snap power") but we're not supposed to rush from one technique to the next, but we're supposed to pause after each move or combination to show our proper stance and control.

This gave one of our students a really hard time, who had come from a Kung Fu school, where the goal was to get through the form in a single breath by doing it as fast as possible. Whereas in our school, we are taught to breathe with every single technique, even if we aren't kiyhaping.

My experience is obviously Taekwondo, but as I mentioned above - the goal of our forms primarily is to build the body control. For this, you need a lot of instruction on how exactly your body is supposed to be controlled. For other arts, the forms are mostly a way to practice drills by yourself that normally require another person. The motions and timings in these forms are less exaggerated and more like the actual drills. It would be silly to spend too much time on these in class, since the drills themselves would be better.

Having recently started in TKD, I agree this seems to be true. At my school, in addition to the standard forms, my school also teaches something called linear forms, which are supposed to be done faster than regular forms. IDK if this is a TKD thing, or just something unique to my school.

 

[skribs]

Having recently started in TKD, I agree this seems to be true. At my school, in addition to the standard forms, my school also teaches something called linear forms, which are supposed to be done faster than regular forms. IDK if this is a TKD thing, or just something unique to my school.

We don't have linear forms per say. We do have other things which are meant to be done faster (basically everything else in the curriculum), but the forms are supposed to show our control and our power, not our speed.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not saying you don't learn anything from the form. But in general, the form serves to polish techniques instead of to teach new ones.

We may just be arguing semantics.

Possible, but I don't really think so.
If you teach the form properly, the student will learn the techniques. They repeat the form, and they polish the techniques.

 

[skribs]

Possible, but I don't really think so.
If you teach the form properly, the student will learn the techniques. They repeat the form, and they polish the techniques.

Maybe if they haven't seen them before. Like I said, in most cases, the student has been exposed to the technique as an individual technique before it they experience it in a form. How can something teach techniques they already know?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Maybe if they haven't seen them before. Like I said, in most cases, the student has been exposed to the technique as an individual technique before it they experience it in a form. How can something teach techniques they already know?

Depends. Our students generally see techniques in forms first.

 

[Mitlov]

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not sure I agree with the forms-as-homework approach. You need supervision and feedback to be doing forms properly, and that means an instructor watching you. Just doing them on your own without frequent instruction and feedback, and you easily could be reinforcing bad practice instead of reinforcing good practice. That's not to say you can't do them on your own, just like you can shadow-box on your own or do repeated slow-motion kicks to work on technique and conditioning on your own...but with all of this stuff, I feel you should also be doing it at practice to get feedback and correction from a live instructor.

Personally, I see two ways in which they tie into my training:

(1) As an abstraction of fundamental techniques and mechanics, like performing scales while learning to play a guitar. You're not actually going to play scales when you're playing a song, and songs in practice don't look or feel like a scales-exercise, but nevertheless, learning and practicing those scales can still be helpful in terms of "practical guitar" because of the fundamental underpinnings reinforced.

(2) As a performance art that's an end in and of itself, instead of a means to another end. Absolutely nothing wrong with learning a performance art that showcases precision, explosiveness, and agility so long as you understand that, on its own, it's a pretty time-inefficient method of building practical fighting skill compared to padwork and sparring and the like.