Christmas vs. "Christmas"

[loki09789]

THere have been many a discussion about the accuracy, validity...what have you of Christmas/religious observation

This thread is about the distinction between the 'Religious' Christmas practices/traditions and the 'Cultural' Christmas practices/traditions.

I live in the US, so that will specify certain things that are 'Christmas' to me that may be different from what a German, Russian, ... would consider 'Christmas' things to do for them.

I gues the point I am getting at is that there is definitely the 'religious' Christmas that is intended to commemorate the birth of the Christ but that there is also the 'National HOLIDAY' that has little to nothing to do with the Messiah but has lots to do with ideas like "Good will" and "Mankind" and being "with the family" and so on that are parallel (and probably inspired by) "Christian" values, but don't have to belong exclusively to Christians.

I am sick of being cautious with the "Happy Holidays" because there is this fear of insulting someone with a "Merry Christmas" because the spirit of the comment is lost on the person when they want to focus on the 'insult' of the statement.

 

[Shodan]

Good post Loki!! Our Pastor was just talking about this in church on Sunday......how do you take Christ out of Christmas when it is in the name too? Are we supposed to change the name of the holiday so as to not offend anyone now? Come on!!

This is something I really liked that I received in my mail this week- it is from Paul Harvey and I thought you might enjoy it and find it relevant here in some way.

That said........MERRY CHRISTmas!!

:asian: :karate:

Paul Harvey says: - "I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because
someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game.

So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the
entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and
asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going
home from the game.

"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the
United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.
According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all
others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect-somebody chanting
Hare Krishna? If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect
to hear a Jewish prayer.

If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim
prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear
someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me
one bit. When in Rome...

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them?
Nobody is asking them to be baptized.. We're not going to pass the
collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds.. If that's asking too
much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit
the concession stand. Call your lawyer!

Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell
thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a
football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our
courts strip us of all our rights.

Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray
before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a
handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God,
help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue
me.

The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that one
or two who scream loud enough to be heard know, that the vast majority
don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules! It's time we
tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of
allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that
honor Him.

That is your right, and we will honor your right.. but by golly, you are
no longer going to take our rights away ... we are fighting back.. and we
WILL WIN!

God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him... God bless
America, despite all her faults, she is still the greatest nation of
all.....

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray
and worship God...

May 2004 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as
the foundation of our families and institutions.

Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust.

 

[raedyn]

I come from a non-christian home, but we do celebrate "christmas" in the national holiday sorts of ways loki was talking about. Like we exchange gifts, we get together for a big meal (actually, several since my parents are divorced and re-married), we donate to charities. Lights on the house, Xmas tree up, yadda yadda yadda. I don't personally take offence to the term "merry christmas" because I get the spirit of the well-wisher. But then, I've come a long way with my tolerance level of this sort of thing.

I used to get all up in arms when someone said "God Bless You" because I felt slighted that they would assume that I should perscribe to their deity and their practices and I wasn't comfortable with that. But I've matured, and I've mellowed, and now I just take that to mean they are wishing me well. I have made a conscious choice to realize the intent of the message and take the positivity in it, instead of turning it into a big Moment to make a Statement of how I am Different.

 

[PeachMonkey]

On the one hand, I think it's critical for adults of all religious spectra to realize how utterly bizzarre it is to be offended when someone wishes you Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas or Happy Hannukah, simply because you don't share their particular faith. It's the sort of back-of-the-room high-school angst that people just need to grow out of.

The idea that Paul Harvey espouses that Christians are somehow being stripped of their "rights" is equally laughable.

 

[oldnewbie]

Well, I for one am deathly tired of hearing about what "might" offend someone, from someone who has not "actually" been offended, but is doing there absolute darndest to live not offending anyone, and forcing me not to offend as well.

We do not have the right to NOT be offended, and I am not going to live my life walking on eggshells.
I respect other views, and I would never stop others from experiencing their holiday as they see fit.

So ... MERRY CHRISTMAS

(Sorry for the thread jerk...)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The argument of religious rights is interesting. We list many different holidays in our calendar here.

Some extra info. You may find the traditions listed for today interesting, as most predate the introduction of Christianity into their respective areas.

========
Christmas this year is on a Saturday.

(Saturday, the day of Seatere, Seater and Saturn, and of Loki, the Norse god of tricks and reverlry)

December 25th is not just Christmas.
- It is the Roman celebration of "Dies Natalis Invicti Solis", birthday of the invincible sun.

- Teutonic legends mention of Lutzelfrau and Perchta, two witches who appear on this day.

- It is the end of the Goddess Month, Astraea.

=====

In the month of December, there are only -4- days that do not have a religious holiday associated with them. Dec 2, 9, 12 and 30. All the rest have 1 or more holidays.

Today for exemple is Yule. Also known as Winter Solstice, Midwinter, Alban Artuan, Fourth Station of the Year.

Alban Arthuan, or "Arthurs Light", is a Druidic festival celebrating the birth of King Arthur. Gifts are bestowed on those less fortunate than ourselves.

The Yule log is lighted from the remains of the old years fire, symbolizing the start of the journey from winters darkness back to the light of spring. On the evening of Yule, young girls seeking lovers stand under sprigs of mistletoe to announce their intentions.

The forthe station of the year is a time of enlightenment. Light is reborn from darkness on this, the shortest day of the year.

=====

I am not offended when someone tells me merry christmas, or happy holidays. I just check my calendar to see just what holiday it was.

 

[Kreth]

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights.

While I agree with the majority of this post, in the context that I don't feel government should dictate this type of thing one way or the other, I find this line amusing. It's due mainly to Christian extremists (and yes, I'm aware that extremists don't speak for the majority of Christians, they just yell the most stridently) that same sex marriages are currently such a hot topic of debate. Don't whine about your rights being stripped away while your endeavor to do just that to others...

On a lighter note, Happy Holidays, in whichever manner you choose to celebrate them (personally I prefer a good virgin sacrifice... )

Jeff

 

[TigerWoman]

It all boils down to treating others as we want to be treated.

It was funny one year. Our school system is all for educating the young in the respective practices of all faiths and cultures. So one year my first grader came home and announced I was remiss because Hanukkah had started and I was doing nothing, especially about the presents. But he also believed in Santa Claus and did so in actuality up until 6th grade. My daughter told me he was in his bedroom upset that it was all a lie. But that was quickly forgotten on Christmas Day. I too, growing up, enjoyed the myth of Santa Claus even though I was raised a Christian so I guess I got the best of both worlds. After all Saint Nicholas was originally where it started - giving to the poor. My family of my youth would all go to church Christmas eve and then drive around looking at the lights, waiting for Santa to come. I don't think I was as incognizant as my son though. He just chose to believe. I choose to believe in the best in people up until they do the dirty and then its not so easy. Its just about "loving" others and "respecting" them. Two words that practically mean the same. And I can say the same about Christmas and "Christ"mas. Its all about love, not hate and intolerance. TW

 

[loki09789]

It all boils down to treating others as we want to be treated.

It was funny one year. Our school system is all for educating the young in the respective practices of all faiths and cultures. So one year my first grader came home and announced I was remiss because Hanukkah had started and I was doing nothing, especially about the presents. But he also believed in Santa Claus and did so in actuality up until 6th grade. My daughter told me he was in his bedroom upset that it was all a lie. But that was quickly forgotten on Christmas Day. I too, growing up, enjoyed the myth of Santa Claus even though I was raised a Christian so I guess I got the best of both worlds. After all Saint Nicholas was originally where it started - giving to the poor. My family of my youth would all go to church Christmas eve and then drive around looking at the lights, waiting for Santa to come. I don't think I was as incognizant as my son though. He just chose to believe. I choose to believe in the best in people up until they do the dirty and then its not so easy. Its just about "loving" others and "respecting" them. Two words that practically mean the same. And I can say the same about Christmas and "Christ"mas. Its all about love, not hate and intolerance. TW

Ah the power of finding the 'common threads' instead of looking at all the little differences as justification to hate, beat and argue 'right/wrong' ......

 

[loki09789]

On a lighter note, Happy Holidays, in whichever manner you choose to celebrate them (personally I prefer a good virgin sacrifice... )

Jeff

Now is that a sacrifice of the a virgin human or a human's virginity.....One lands you in jail pretty quick, the other will depend on the ages involved and statutory laws......

 

[Adept]

As Bob Hubbard points out, christmas celebrations have been going on in one form or another for thousands of years, long before Christ was ever born.

To be perfectly honest, I'd like to see it become a completely secular celebration of humanity. While I think it is becoming more and more secular each year, I fear it is more a celebration of economics than anything else.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If one wants to celebrate Christmas, I see no reason they shouldn't.
If one wishes to celebrate the birthdate of the Christian Messiah, then they should be allowed to do so as well.


The problem is, based on the research of Christian scientists, they believe that Christs birth was actualy in October. The date "Dec. 25" was picked specifically to coincide with an existing pagan holiday. In fact, many Christian holidays are either on the same, or within a day of older pagan ones. They were chosen so that as teh religion grew, people would have an easier time adapting.

I personally don't see Christmas as "Christian". I see it as being a holiday for all. You may call it Yule, Winter Solstice, or even Christ-mass. It is, at it's root, a celebration of birth, of renewal, of beginning, of new innocence. It is a chance to be with family, to share love, and to renew old friendships. I think those ideas are in most of our December holidays.

Now, if yule excuse me, I'm working on this thingy to hang misletoe over my head.

 

[Seig]

Remember, the word Christmas is a shortened version and contraction of the words, the Christ Mass.

 

[Rusty]

There are in fact two Christmases. I am a non-practicing Jew, married into a extremely large Catholic family, so I have actually gotten to experience them both.

But the best part of both of them, is that they seem to be Holidays which inspire people to "give of themselves."

 

[loki09789]

Remember, the word Christmas is a shortened version and contraction of the words, the Christ Mass.

In its original creation/usage, that was the meaning. Now, based on context, the meaning has obviously changed depending on whether you observe Christmas as a religious observance or a National/Seasonal holiday that is not specifically focused on Christ/Messianic birth.

We use the term GOOD BYE all the time and that does not consciously mean GOD BE WITH YOU(YE) all the time now either. How people use/define these terms is a big deal.

I would not be insulted if someone, mistakenly assuming that I was Jewish or Muslim, wished me a holiday greeting in a religiously specific way based on their faith. I would recieve it as an intended well wish, meant to embody the best values of love/humanity/spiritual protection and simply say thank you (and possibly a polite informative correction on my status).

I think people get hung up on the details a little too much about things like this at times and 'loose the forest for the trees' so to speak.

 

[loki09789]

There are in fact two Christmases. I am a non-practicing Jew, married into a extremely large Catholic family, so I have actually gotten to experience them both.

But the best part of both of them, is that they seem to be Holidays which inspire people to "give of themselves."

Nicely put.

Question: Do you notice more similarities or differences between the "national" Christmas and the "religious" Christmas? What about between the Festival of Lights celebration (as you know it) and either the National/Religious Christmas?

 

[MisterMike]

Christians protest actions that play down Christmas' religious nature

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...stactionsthatplaydownchristmasreligiousnature

• In Bay Harbor Islands, Fla., a Christian sued in federal court after town officials refused to let her erect a Nativity scene next to a menorah, or Hanukkah candelabra, on a causeway. Last week, a judge ordered the town to comply.


• In Maplewood, N.J., parents and students recently petitioned the local school board after school officials dropped even instrumental versions of Christmas music from class programs.


• In Denver, a Protestant church responded to the city's decision to drop "Merry Christmas" from public signs by trying to enter a Christmas-themed float in the holiday parade. Supporters picketed the parade and sang Christmas carols after the float was rejected.


• In California, a group called the Committee to Save Merry Christmas is boycotting Federated Department Stores. The group claims that Federated's affiliates, including Macy's, prohibit clerks from saying "Merry Christmas" and ban the word "Christmas" from ads and store displays. The retail giant says it has no such policy.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

The secular Christmas ("Xmas") is pretty overwhelming. I only feel that I am celebrating religious Christmas when I am in church for the midnight service, hopefully with my family.

I'd like to go back to the way the Russian Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox Christians) celebrate - by exchanging presents on Jan. 6th (after the Magi arrived to see the baby), and celebrating the birth itself on Dec. 25th.

That for me would separate out the two a little more.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

A friend of mine does just that. He and his 'family' (blood and closest friends) gather then, and celebrate.

There are 12 days of celebration....why limit yourself to just 1. (12/25-1/6 = 12 days of christmas)

 

[loki09789]

Christians protest actions that play down Christmas' religious nature

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=710&e=1&u=/usatoday/christiansprotestactionsthatplaydownchristmasreligiousnature

Don't even get me going about things like Salvation Army and other organizations with the Santa ringing the bell next to the change donation bucket that are not allowed at certain retail locations this year as well. That takes a big chunk of their fundraising away as well.