Choosing teachers

[puunui]

A great deal depends on the quality of the teacher. If teachers are also intensely searching for the most comprehensive knowledge possible throughout their lifetime, even their most intensely-searching students will forever lag behind them while the teacher lives. And, if knowledge in the field of study itself is forever expanding, then even the most dedicated learners can never know everything. But, if the teacher stops learning, then, yes, I believe that students can surpass their teachers. And, certainly, this surpassing can happen in specific areas rather than in regard to an entire base of knowledge.

What really matters, in my view, is the dedication of the search on the part of both student and a teacher who also views him- or herself forever as a student. Lucky is the student whose teacher never stops learning and growing with a spirit of humble and earnest inquiry.

Cynthia

I chose to start a new thread because we were straying off topic.

A long time ago, I read an article in Psychology Today. I think the article was called "The mystery of mastery" and it was a study on how people become masters in their chosen field. There were different steps that all budding masters chose, and along the path, there were different teachers as well. The article explained three different stages and three different teachers.

The first stage was what I would call the elementary school through high school level teacher. This teacher was very encouraging, and made the student learn to love their chosen field. Generally budding masters started their craft early, in childhood or early elementary school age. Not always, but that is what the article said. It cited areas like gymnastics, baseball, chess, etc. but not specifically the martial arts. These types of teachers were very encouraging, similar to how teachers are now in commercial type schools.

The second level teacher was much different than the first. The second was a perfectionist, and made the student strive for excellence in all areas of the chosen field. This teacher was important because he/she laid the foundation for the future. I would analogize these types of teachers to college professors, for bachelors and masters degrees. The craft was fine tuned and great strides are made during this period of learning. However, this stage requires a work ethic that not everyone is up for and so many people drop out or stay at lower levels of skill. The high school athlete does not play college ball for example and any attempts to get the person to rise to this level is met with resistance.

The third level teacher takes lessons to a much different level. Study at this stage is mostly self study, in preparation for sessions with the third level teacher. These types of lessons often transcend the physical, and touch in instead on philosophical and other areas of study. I would liken this to Ph.D level or post graduate level studies, which is mostly self directed. Not many pursue their craft to this stage.

Anyway, that was the essence of the mastery article. I still have the article somewhere.

I think in the martial arts, it is difficult to find second and especially third level teachers. You can spot them almost immediately because they tend to think and act differently than first level teachers, in almost every way.

I think that people get upset because they tend to stay with their first level teacher, who may be ill equipped or perhaps not even interested in taking students to upper levels of learning. The high school teacher for example, only wishes to teach high school level students. Some students leave their teachers, angry at being "held back" or whatever, and go on a search for a new teacher, only to discover that the new teacher is much like the original teacher in ability, focus and interest. It does no good to go from one high school level teacher to another. You know when you are in such a school when the curriculum is geared primarily to color belt students, with virtually no curriculum for higher belts.

Other students feel very comfortable with their first level teacher, and stay with them long past the time when they should be seeking out a new teacher. Any attempt to get them to expand beyond the level of their first level teacher's lessons is met with hostility and resentment.

I think the key is that once you reach a certain level, that students, with the permission of the original teacher, seek out higher level teachers. Our high school teachers are willing and able to assist us to get into as good a college as possible. They are, in essence, encouraging us and allowing us to move on to a level of instructor that is perhaps higher than their own. We accept this in regular education, but many martial arts teachers get upset with this concept.

In the past with USTU, the OTC program served as many competitor's second level teacher. An example of a third level teacher would be a pioneer, a kwan jang level practitioner such as GM LEE Chong Woo, someone who transcends dan rank, in every sense of the the concept.

 

[mastercole]

I chose to start a new thread because we were straying off topic.

A long time ago, I read an article in Psychology Today. I think the article was called "The mystery of mastery" and it was a study on how people become masters in their chosen field. There were different steps that all budding masters chose, and along the path, there were different teachers as well. The article explained three different stages and three different teachers.

The first stage was what I would call the elementary school through high school level teacher. This teacher was very encouraging, and made the student learn to love their chosen field. Generally budding masters started their craft early, in childhood or early elementary school age. Not always, but that is what the article said. It cited areas like gymnastics, baseball, chess, etc. but not specifically the martial arts. These types of teachers were very encouraging, similar to how teachers are now in commercial type schools.

The second level teacher was much different than the first. The second was a perfectionist, and made the student strive for excellence in all areas of the chosen field. This teacher was important because he/she laid the foundation for the future. I would analogize these types of teachers to college professors, for bachelors and masters degrees. The craft was fine tuned and great strides are made during this period of learning. However, this stage requires a work ethic that not everyone is up for and so many people drop out or stay at lower levels of skill. The high school athlete does not play college ball for example and any attempts to get the person to rise to this level is met with resistance.

The third level teacher takes lessons to a much different level. Study at this stage is mostly self study, in preparation for sessions with the third level teacher. These types of lessons often transcend the physical, and touch in instead on philosophical and other areas of study. I would liken this to Ph.D level or post graduate level studies, which is mostly self directed. Not many pursue their craft to this stage.

Anyway, that was the essence of the mastery article. I still have the article somewhere.

I think in the martial arts, it is difficult to find second and especially third level teachers. You can spot them almost immediately because they tend to think and act differently than first level teachers, in almost every way.

I think that people get upset because they tend to stay with their first level teacher, who may be ill equipped or perhaps not even interested in taking students to upper levels of learning. The high school teacher for example, only wishes to teach high school level students. Some students leave their teachers, angry at being "held back" or whatever, and go on a search for a new teacher, only to discover that the new teacher is much like the original teacher in ability, focus and interest. It does no good to go from one high school level teacher to another. You know when you are in such a school when the curriculum is geared primarily to color belt students, with virtually no curriculum for higher belts.

Other students feel very comfortable with their first level teacher, and stay with them long past the time when they should be seeking out a new teacher. Any attempt to get them to expand beyond the level of their first level teacher's lessons is met with hostility and resentment.

I think the key is that once you reach a certain level, that students, with the permission of the original teacher, seek out higher level teachers. Our high school teachers are willing and able to assist us to get into as good a college as possible. They are, in essence, encouraging us and allowing us to move on to a level of instructor that is perhaps higher than their own. We accept this in regular education, but many martial arts teachers get upset with this concept.

In the past with USTU, the OTC program served as many competitor's second level teacher. An example of a third level teacher would be a pioneer, a kwan jang level practitioner such as GM LEE Chong Woo, someone who transcends dan rank, in every sense of the the concept.

I also feel this is where some practitioners make a great error. They end up under a 1st level teacher for to long, or bounce from teacher to teacher, or organization to organization without ever breaking through that 1st level of learning, stuck in a rut of rehash learning. They get frustrated and start looking at other martial arts to fill the void, only to also gather 1st level knowledge. Now they have a mishmash of a little of this 1st level stuff, and and a little of that 1st level stuff. They end up confused and hating their original style or instructor and think that everyone else in that style only ever got as far as they did.

There is an old saying that goes something like "it's better to spend a lifetime searching for the right teacher, than spending a day training with the wrong one"

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Its probably fair to say that many students will never get access to all three levels of teaching. There would be many people living in relatively unpopulated remote areas where there may be just a small school with a handful of students run by a master and that may be all they ever know. Its one of the things I like about being in a big club, having access to teachers of all ranks who will all have something different to offer as I go through the levels. My current instructor (7th dan) interacts and teaches very differently with the different levels of black belt. He certainly offers me something different at 1st dan than what he offers the higher dans.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Its probably fair to say that many students will never get access to all three levels of teaching. ................Its one of the things I like about being in a big club, having access to teachers of all ranks who will all have something different to offer as I go through the levels. ....

NOTE: The following reflects on your statement but not you or your instructors . (I know nothing of either) It is intended to be generic.

Yes, economics anbd geography play a role in access to teachers. BUT , a more important factor is energy. Fortuneately I am in Chicago. Many noted Martial Artists come to town and do seminars. Yet, their are often only a certain type of student there. Those who will get off their but, fork over some discretionary dollars and venture outside their comfort zone and will do so with or without their instructor's knowledge or blessing. Being near O'Hare airport also makes travel easy as does access to the interstate highway system to go visit other locals for the d\same purpose.

There are many who will never make the effort (some whose instructors forbid it!) and I submit will never travel for lessons outside their comfort zone, school or organization which limits their experience and provides little for which to measure what they are learning against.

 

[armortkd]

This is a discussion that really should be explored for coaches, instructors, & students. From a Physical Education standpoint on pedagogy: there are 4 major domains which are the #1-psychomotor (physical), #2-cognitive (mental), #3-affinitive (social/emotional), & #4-lifelong fitness (mastery). All 3 instructors have their place in teaching practices for a students. The 1st instructor in the article is laying the foundation of #1-3 areas. Yes, these instructors are important to a novice's initial development because they're encouraging and support. What the problem is that students have an emotional attachment to their instructor and can't break that bond even when they have "outgrown" them. The 2nd instructor in the article primarily focuses on advancing the #1-2 domains. Typically, I find that these instructors tend to forget where they come from and they have a hard time "coaching" students into the lifelong fitness. They do have their place for a smaller segment of students who want to attain higher levels of expertise. The 3rd instructor in the article is at the #4 domain with knowledge of the #1-3 areas. They may not know all of cutting edge training methods & strategies, but they have wisdom (simplicity).

My stepfather told me this when I asked him as a red belt, "What's the difference between a student, instructor, and a master?" He said: If asked a question.....A student would take several pages to answer, an instructor may take a few paragraphs, and a master would take a few sentences. It took me time in my own development and education to fully understand this.

Ralph: It truly takes an unique individual that has all of the qualities and can on a personal, systematic, and pedagogy level....pass this to their students. Many instructors expect their students to adapt and accept their instruction, but very few truly adapt to their students.

 

[lifespantkd]

I agree that access to the right teacher at the right time is critical for continued development of a student (in any field, not just Taekwondo). Understanding learner characteristics is critical to understanding what the "right teacher" will be. Specifically, what a learner is interested in learning and capable of learning is, in large part, a function of who they are in the context of their overall development, their inherent degree of drive for development (e.g., some people are largely content to stay where they are while others are intensely interested in learning and growing--and, hence, more willing to go outside their comfort zone to do so). In a very inadequate nutshell, in Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration--a theory of how personality develops--there are several levels of development: primary integration (most of the individual's focus is dedicated to satisfying biologically based instincts, drives and needs), unilevel disintegration (individuals experience conflict and distress in a crisis, which may prompt regression to primary integration or further disintegration as the individual, in essence "unstructures" who they are to be able to "restructure" who they are at a more advanced level of development), spontaneous multilevel disintegration (an "unstructuring" stage in which individuals question what they believe , who they are, and who society expects them to be and in which they are no longer content to focus only on biologically based drives and needs), organized multilevel disintegration (a "restructuring" stage in which indviduals develop autonomy, authenticity, self-education, self-correction, self-therapy, ... and in which their interactions with others are based on a sense of social justice and empathic connection, secondary integration (the highest level of human development in which individuals experience virtually no inner conflict, are at peace with themselves and are guided by a hierarchy of values such as empathy, autonomy and authenticity). (Mendaglio 2008).

How people practice and teach Taekwondo will be dramatically different depending on where they are in their personality development. Their needs, perceptions, and motivations are dramatically different at each level. So, finding the right teacher will mean different things for different people at different stages of their development. A student who is at a higher level of personality development will have the most difficult time finding the right teacher because the right teacher for him/her must be further along the path of development than the student is.

Reference

Mendaglio, S. Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration. Scottsdale, AZ: Great Potential Press 2008.


Cynthia

 

[puunui]

I also feel this is where some practitioners make a great error. They end up under a 1st level teacher for to long, or bounce from teacher to teacher, or organization to organization without ever breaking through that 1st level of learning, stuck in a rut of rehash learning. They get frustrated and start looking at other martial arts to fill the void, only to also gather 1st level knowledge. Now they have a mishmash of a little of this 1st level stuff, and and a little of that 1st level stuff. They end up confused and hating their original style or instructor and think that everyone else in that style only ever got as far as they did.

true. And when you try to help them to experience second or third level thoughts and concepts, they get really defensive, angry and hostile. oh well.

There is an old saying that goes something like "it's better to spend a lifetime searching for the right teacher, than spending a day training with the wrong one"

I also like the proverb "When the student is ready, the master will appear." If someone gets stuck continuously with first level teachers, then perhaps they are not ready for a second or third level teacher.

 

[puunui]

Yes, economics anbd geography play a role in access to teachers. BUT , a more important factor is energy. Fortuneately I am in Chicago. Many noted Martial Artists come to town and do seminars. Yet, their are often only a certain type of student there. Those who will get off their but, fork over some discretionary dollars and venture outside their comfort zone and will do so with or without their instructor's knowledge or blessing. Being near O'Hare airport also makes travel easy as does access to the interstate highway system to go visit other locals for the same purpose.

In my opinion, there is no substitute for daily, often harsh, often unpleasant yet always disciplined training under a second or third level teacher for several years. Training under white eyebrow in kill bill 2 comes to mind.

 

[puunui]

A student who is at a higher level of personality development will have the most difficult time finding the right teacher because the right teacher for him/her must be further along the path of development than the student is.

I think that if you are the right student, then the right teacher will find you, if you don't find him/her first, no matter where they are and no matter what you have to do to get there. Or at least that has always been my working philosophy.

 

[mastercole]

I also like the proverb "When the student is ready, the master will appear." If someone gets stuck continuously with first level teachers, then perhaps they are not ready for a second or third level teacher.

Me too, I say it to students all the time. I think you are correct, some people are not ready for the next level of learning.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Me too, I say it to students all the time. I think you are correct, some people are not ready for the next level of learning.

And when do you think the second level is required? Just curious because you said when the student is ready the master will appear, and after I got my first dan my original instructor moved away and that is when my new instructor 'appeared' (after much searching on my part). Or, is 1st dan too early on to move to the "second level".

 

[puunui]

Me too, I say it to students all the time. I think you are correct, some people are not ready for the next level of learning.

The book Jonathan Livingston Seagull serves as a pretty good parable of the levels. It's worth reading.

 

[mastercole]

And when do you think the second level is required? Just curious because you said when the student is ready the master will appear, and after I got my first dan my original instructor moved away and that is when my new instructor 'appeared' (after much searching on my part). Or, is 1st dan too early on to move to the "second level".

Dan has zero to do with it. I also don't think there are any requirements attached to any level, I feel that it is a natural state of living. Some folks are hungry to learn and learn deeply. Some folks are not. I guess a person has to figure out when searching out more is right for them.

 

[Gorilla]

Probably the best thread I have seen on martial talk. Congrats puuni and all that have posted. It is funny because we were in need of a Second Level instructor and she appeared. Very very lucky

 

[puunui]

P It is funny because we were in need of a Second Level instructor and she appeared. Very very lucky

Do you really think it was luck?

 

[Gorilla]

Yes....have you heard of the concept of return on luck. It is in the collins book Great By Choice.....many people would not take advantage of the luck that came our way. We recognized it and very happy for it.

 

[puunui]

Yes....have you heard of the concept of return on luck. It is in the collins book Great By Choice.....many people would not take advantage of the luck that came our way. We recognized it and very happy for it.

sorry, I have never heard of the concept of return on luck or the book, Great by Choice. But in the example that you give, I would call that "preparation" or "readiness" rather than "luck". It is true though, people often times don't make the most of the situations presented to them.

 

[Gorilla]

The book is about operating a business that is able to thrive in turbulent times such as our recent past. People get caught up in the word " Luck" but it is as you say about being prepared for luck good or bad. We do at times run into situations out of our control if we choose to take charge of the situation and not fall into victim mode you will overcome. You should read the book it is a good one.

 

[puunui]

The book is about operating a business that is able to thrive in turbulent times such as our recent past. People get caught up in the word " Luck" but it is as you say about being prepared for luck good or bad. We do at times run into situations out of our control if we choose to take charge of the situation and not fall into victim mode you will overcome. You should read the book it is a good one.

Maybe I will read that book. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Carol]

The book is about operating a business that is able to thrive in turbulent times such as our recent past. People get caught up in the word " Luck" but it is as you say about being prepared for luck good or bad. We do at times run into situations out of our control if we choose to take charge of the situation and not fall into victim mode you will overcome. You should read the book it is a good one.

+1 I have read the book, it is very good. I particularly liked the points he made about people who let themselves be mentally imprisoned by bad luck. Great suggestion :asian: