chisao ,what is it?

[skinters]

i know i have touched on what i notice about chisao,but want to maybe ask you all again from another perspective .

what is chisao to you ...how do you perform it? do you think others you train with have differing ideas of how chisao should be performed?

an example of this,im doing chisao with with my training partner and out of the blue he paks my tan and strikes right through and flicks at my chest ...i say hang thats not chisao,to me chisao is an excersise where by you and you partner trade exchanges in a coopretive manner ,if you just burst through hard and fast you give me no chance to respond and your drilling.

now there is nothing wrong in working planned drills from your chisao,or into realistic applications ...but i feel there is a distinction between chisao drills and free chisao,done in the proper manner.

take a look at these two examples of chisao wich gives a better example of what im refering to .

the first one is how i like to perform chisao it flows from one movement to the next .the second are how i see a lot of people performing they chisao ...so whats the difference ?...and how can they both be performed at the same time by two people doing chisao ?

 

[matsu]

from my beginners eyes... they are both chi sao but one is more of a drill than pure sensitivity training so there is a place for both.?

personally i would like to be able to do any of them lol

matsu

 

[geezer]

i know i have touched on what i notice about chisao,but want to maybe ask you all again from another perspective .

what is chisao to you ...how do you perform it? do you think others you train with have differing ideas of how chisao should be performed?

Chi-sau is the most distinguishing feature of WT/WC. Other systems may use similar techniques trained through forms, drills, and then sparring. But we have Chi-sau which is a pretty unique way to build such skills as flow, speed, sensitivity to force, and responsiveness to the unexpected. It bridges the gap between a learned movement (form) to applied movement (sparring) in a way not found in other styles.

As to what it is and how it should be aproached, you will get a lot of opinions. I'd say that Chi-sau is a physical dialogue. Dan-chi is like a question and response exchange between children. You make a statement: a front palm strike. Your partner gives his response: fook-sau sinks, becoming jum sau, then a mid-level punch. You hear what he is "saying" and answer with bong-sau and so on. As you progress into Poon-sau your dialogue becomes more complex. Sometimes it's soft, smooth and cooperative, "a quiet conversation". Or, you can get a bit more aggressive with your attacks and you have a sharp but friendly "debate" in which you take some fast contolled shots at each other, but cheerfully acknowledge it when your partner "drives home a point", so to speak. Finally, Chi-sau can even become a "heated argument" in which each side really cranks up the pressure until it becomes all out sparring except that you are both "sticking" as much as possible.

In the WT system I practice, we begin training Chi-Sau almost like learning prepared dialogues in a foreign language. We learn sequences of attack and response to train the appropriate reaction. Then, as our Chi-Sau "vocabualary" and "grammar" grows, we start having little conversations using the material we have learned. Eventually, as you begin to "speak" Chi-sau more fluently, you can converse freely, debate, or argue as you please. When you can really hold your own in an argument with a worthy opponent, then you are getting somewhere. On the other hand, what you described above sounds like beginners just taking cheap shots at each other and playing "gotcha". Now that isn't much of a dialogue.

 

[skinters]

geezer

enjoyed your post,i like the way you look at chisao as a converstation.

i was doing chisao with a big lad in class he layed back and relaxed but i have more nervous energy and can be quite intense with chisao,and im exactly the same in converstation ... he was telling me to slow down (he could not get a word in haha)... we clashed .

you have given me a fresh look at it

cheers

 

[mook jong man]

Its all chi sao , you can just stand there and do relaxed rolling or you can ramp it up a bit and try out different traps on each other which can lead to full on chi sao sparring .

I love doing the various traps , but what i really love is the counters to the traps , and the counters to the counter - traps and so on .
It is in these defences to the traps that you can see how elegant and cleverly designed the system is .

With the first video i was more interested in how at some points they controlled with the palm , not saying its wrong just different to how i was taught in TST lineage where we control with the wrist.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Chi sao is just reall any drill where you develop stick, movement, positioning etc , using wing chun movements

Different schools perform it different ways. Most start in poon sao and work set movements from there. More advanced chi sao is any movement where at least on hand is connected with your opponents hands

But schools vary greatly. People think that chi sao is the be all and end all of wing chun, but really it is just one training method

 

[graychuan]

i know i have touched on what i notice about chisao,but want to maybe ask you all again from another perspective .

what is chisao to you ...how do you perform it? do you think others you train with have differing ideas of how chisao should be performed?

Wordz from GrayCh'uan:
The purpose of these specific prearranged drills is to develop a very simple but obviously overlooked facet of fighting training which is called Muscle Memory. Now its one thing to react or respond to an attack but what are you reacting with? Reflexes as you say? Ok, then what is the reflexive response? Do we just pull this out of our @$$&$ at the moment? No.
The drills in Wing Chun and Chi-Sao are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the 'complicated prearranged responses' of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight…chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don't see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That's why Sil Lim Tao doesn't trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful? Chi-Sao is Wing Chun's way to answer these questions.


Wordz from Sifu Ali Rahim:
Chi Sao is nothing more than flipping the switches to an automatic beat down. There should be nothing to think about. When one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stay…
When things are truly understood one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds).

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

"Chi Sao is nothing more than flipping the switches to an automatic beat down." - Ali Rahim

There, my friends, is pure Wing Chun Enlightenment!! I laughed out loud when I read this!

This is so true!

This should become a new addition to the Kuen Kuit!

Very good post, Graychuan! Very important wordz.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[mook jong man]

Thats very true , how often have you responded to an attack in chi sau without any conscious thought at all as though your arms have minds of their own , and you think to yourself where the hell did that just come from .

 

[matsu]

and you think to yourself where the hell did that just come from

the same happened to me last nite in loksau, we were working on set responses,things got a little faster and bam! i responded in a different ,but correct counter. it shocked me ... and my opponent.:jediduel:
matsu

 

[KamonGuy2]

Nice one!! Thats the beauty of wing chun. People who have never done wing chun never really understand the whole concept of sensitivity and reacting without thinking about reacting.

The classic is when people grab you and your arms just naturally fold the right way and find the sweet spot

 

[mook jong man]

and you think to yourself where the hell did that just come from

the same happened to me last nite in loksau, we were working on set responses,things got a little faster and bam! i responded in a different ,but correct counter. it shocked me ... and my opponent.:jediduel:
matsu

Yeah its a good feeling isn't it , its the stuff that makes training worthwhile.
Wait till later on when you start improvising techniques that you have never even been taught or seen before , thats happened to me a couple of times .

 

[geezer]

Thats very true , how often have you responded to an attack in chi sau without any conscious thought at all as though your arms have minds of their own , and you think to yourself where the hell did that just come from .

Yes! This is the coolest thing about Chi-Sau, and sparring in WC/WT. Your hands move before your mind. And a good thing too, since my mind has been moving pretty slowly of late. I never experienced this when I trained other styles, but my background is limited. Have any of the rest of you had it happen before you trained WC or WT?

 

[dungeonworks]

...Have any of the rest of you had it happen before you trained WC or WT?

Yes. It happened multiple times kickboxing and every great now and then rolling at an MMA school I trained at a few years ago. I am still seeking that with my Wing Chun but so far it all still feels just as awkward as it did a few months ago....stains of karate past??? LOL I'm in no way doubting what I am doing as my instructor's skills nullify any thought of that (his sensitivity is crazy unreal), just hitting a plateau of sorts in my training speaking as an individual student.

 

[qwksilver61]

A nice arrangement!.....once assembled...becomes the music of Wing Tsun!
of course it becomes order out of chaos..but only to the individual........

 

[paulus]

I'd say that Chi-sau is a physical dialogue.

I think this is a really good analogy. This is pretty much the attitude we have to chi sau in our class. As for the videos, the 1st is obviously spontaneous and improvised, but the 2nd sure looks like a rehearsed drill to me. I think there's a place for both. We do more improvised 'conversation', but every now and then sifu shows us a new technique and the only way to become familiar with it is to practise it over and over like in the 2nd vid. That way it can become yet another unconscious response.