chisao relaxing the arms

[skinters]

in my wing chun class im for ever being told to relax ,shake it out,drop the shoulder,loosen up .im fine with all this as i know my left shoulder has a tendency to come forwards and tense up .

questions:

if my structure is totaly relaxed and my partner is also are we exerting the same forwards pressure etc ?

if my partner is telling me to relax my arms am i not just conforming to his pressure ?

if i dont feel stress in my shoulders and i feel generaly relaxed and my partner still insists im to rigid would me relaxing any further result in me being to soft ?

is there a correct way to apply pressure in the way you can feel your partners intentions and is it all the same with everyone ?

when i chisao with several people and they all tell me conflicting things to do with my tensing ie yes thats fine no your to tight no your to soft ....its just so confusing.

 

[JustAVisitor]

Glue to your partner and relax to feeeeeel the flow.
There is too much tension if:
- the circles look more like rectangles than circles
- the flow is often interrupted
(just to give you a couple of reference points)

 

[geezer]

in my wing chun class im for ever being told to relax ,shake it out,drop the shoulder,loosen up...

when i chisao with several people and they all tell me conflicting things to do with my tensing ie yes thats fine no your to tight no your to soft ....its just so confusing.

As a general rule, Chi-Sau should be relaxed and fluid, not tense and robotic. However, if it were possible to teach it through the written word, or even to talk someone through it, there would be no need to take classes. The fact is that the only way to learn the correct feel of Chi-Sau is to practice it with an instructor.

Now it can be frustrating when working with other students to get contradictory feedback. Some are very quick to correct another student when they themseles don't have a high level of skill. And, learning to relax without becoming totally limp is tough. Again, in most lineages, the goal is to be flexible and fluid, while retaining a "springy" forward energy. Teaching techniques and terminologies vary so I won't go into detail. The important thing is to check out any advice you get from other students with your instructor. Keep practicing, and have patience. Good Luck!

 

[mook jong man]

I would not worry about what people of your level are saying , they might think you are tense but maybe you are relaxed and your force is just going down instead of towards them and they interpret this as tension because of their own lack of knowledge.

They might even be just lifting up their elbow when they do bong sau and wearing out their shoulder muscles instead of it cork screwing it forward . Stay away from the nitpickers you'll end up doing more talking than training , get someone more senior to check your chi sao out and see what they think.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Normally, whenever I told someone to relax it meant that they were using enough pressure or resistance to be manipulated easily. That means using enough pressure to easily "open a gate" and/or misalign your structure.

Check that you are not "muscleing" your Chi Sao rolling. Later you can strategically use this, yet at novice levels this should not be attempted, since a good Chi Sao player will have a field day with you.

Yet what is most important is that you develop your own gauge. I also say that if they have time to talk, they have time to get hit. So shut up and train! Silence is Golden in Wing Chun!

There are different kinds of loads on the arms in Chi Sao, yet what is most important in my view is that you stay structured and aligned in your movements. That way you can attack and defend effectively and efficiently.

Hope that helps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[skinters]

when i posted i didnt seek for confirmation of the way i was feeling about it but the replies are exactly what i needed to hear to spur me on i really appreciate it thanks

the other thing with being told to relax all the time is its making me worse as im focusing on being relaxed.try and relax try and relax but its the word try kinda contradicts relaxing ,and ive made up my mind not to focus on it and let it come naturely .

do you think i should make this clear to those i train with ? we seem to be talking more that actualy rolling and id rather a sustained action so i can relax into it but im getting stop relax stop relax instead of me finding my way.

im also looking at it in the way of ok if im open come through stop talking about it ,i feel this way ill learn more than stop start all the time its just building my anxiety and would rather get hit a few times and learn that way .

im also starting to think all this start stop is just an excuse not to get involved with actual contact .

 

[matsu]

guys this is an excellent thread with some very good advice and i,m sure all beginners will be able to read this and empathise and/or learn. i just did

so thank you for all the great words.
matsu

 

[brocklee]

As a general rule, Chi-Sau should be relaxed and fluid, not tense and robotic. However, if it were possible to teach it through the written word, or even to talk someone through it, there would be no need to take classes. The fact is that the only way to learn the correct feel of Chi-Sau is to practice it with an instructor.

Now it can be frustrating when working with other students to get contradictory feedback. Some are very quick to correct another student when they themseles don't have a high level of skill. And, learning to relax without becoming totally limp is tough. Again, in most lineages, the goal is to be flexible and fluid, while retaining a "springy" forward energy. Teaching techniques and terminologies vary so I won't go into detail. The important thing is to check out any advice you get from other students with your instructor. Keep practicing, and have patience. Good Luck!

Dead on accurate

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

As stated, if you just keep playing Chi Sao without stopping and are too tense...

you will get tired.

With experience your body will find that the way to NOT get tired is...

guess...

Just try and guess...

You got it! RELAXING!

So, my advice is to keep rolling hands and NOT talk a lot. Just tell them "ok. Let's keep rolling." Until they give up by saying they're tired...

That means that THEY were the tense ones!

Also, a nice word to replace "relax" is "soften". Use that.

Conserve energy. Prune your movements ("Economize motion"). soften then explode with hardness. Then return to softness. Yin/Yang.

Taoism is at the foundation of Wing Chun.

These things are important to remember. Hope it helps.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[mook jong man]

Soften , i like that.

 

[skinters]

think im going to exchange the word relax to soften i get these ideas now and again they just come to me haha.

great advice again thanks .

when im rolling my arms,shoulders dont get tired and like i keep telling those i roll with i feel relaxed .i just want the time to let it come naturely instead of stop start all the time grabbing my hands and shaking them out its comical sometimes.

 

[BlueVino]

Before I give my answers/opinions on your specific questions, I've found that recognizing relaxation in yourself is a question of having the right "feel." I know that's not a lot of help, but for me it was just a question of time on the floor and practice.

Questions like this are good ones to as your sifu, too.

if my structure is totally relaxed and my partner is also are we exerting the same forwards pressure etc ?

Maybe, not not necessarily.

if my partner is telling me to relax my arms am i not just conforming to his pressure ?

No. Your partner is almost certainly feeling stiffness in your movement than in your pressure.

if i dont feel stress in my shoulders and i feel generaly relaxed and my partner still insists im to rigid would me relaxing any further result in me being to soft ?

No. Relaxing doesn't mean you've entirely driven all muscle activity from your body, if means you're using just those muscles that are necessary at the moment.

is there a correct way to apply pressure in the way you can feel your partners intentions and is it all the same with everyone ?

Yes, there is a correct way. It comes with practice.
I'm not sure what you're really asking with your second question. On one hand, everyone has different energy, so they'll feel different, but your energy shouldn't change.

when i chisao with several people and they all tell me conflicting things to do with my tensing ie yes thats fine no your to tight no your to soft ....its just so confusing.

...and the hell of it is, they're probably all correct.

Cheers,
Trueblood

 

[skinters]

what i was trying to get at with my second question was if im applying enough pressure and relaxion in my arms to feel whats being directed my way but my training partner is saying im to stiff and i need to soften, am i just going into his comfort zone and away from mine ?

why should i change my feel so that he can feel what im doing better?

when i thought about this question again i feel this time looking at it that it was maybe a bit of for want of a better word paranoia thinking i was being tricked ...i know it sounds daft .

i have to be more trusting im going through a funny stage where i quite defensive .

 

[BFL]

Much good advice has been given so I'll try not to add to it. One of my students already has his own school teaching something totally different from Wing Chun and it's a chore to have him understand not using any muscle or strength but to let his mind direct his flow and not think about combinations, responses etc. This is the hardest part to pass on to someone already experienced with another art or even a total beginner and it only is accomplished with time.
I can't remember who posted it previously but it was well said to learn to not use forward energy, but to learn to excercise forward mind intent or Hei. Spot on!
I do teach forward energy in the very beginning so we can then transalate to forward intent. I feel this begins to train the student's mindset of "forward", and then once they have the concepts we dial it back to forward intent with no energy pressing. Then they have the concept of forward and not down, out or up, thus making the fine tuning a little easier.
I've seen many different styles of Chi Sao and I prefer not to say one is more or less right or wrong as it is not my place to judge how a school does they're "thing" but I have always had a very soft touch and very few can "feel or read" my intent because of this. I'd say learn the forward intent, no heavy hard energy or strength and much of the advise above is spot on so heed wise words and practice, practice, practice. It will come with time.
Peace and blessings to all,
Buzz

 

[skinters]

thank you

going to put everything said into practice .

 

[qwksilver61]

My two cents; working in a machine shop tends to produce muscle,I do not lift weights or do push ups.I found out the hard way at the EBMAS seminar this weekend.I would compare the tension I tried to exert to pressing on a spring, the spring loading,then being suddenly released.Sometimes you tend to forget and then you are given a gentle reminder.Absolutely stay relaxed but staid and intent.The seminar was a hit both Sifu Emin and Guro Latosa are very approachable,respectable,gentlemen.I was very impressed.