Chindo Hyung, Video, Applications, and General Discussion

[Makalakumu]

In TSD we learn this form for 2nd dan. We view it as a "crane form" meaning that its moves were inspired by the crane. We also learn a nickname for this form that hints at its character, "Crane on the Rock."

However, there are many other ways this form can be viewed and it is important to know the lineage regarding these points of view. Take this article for instance. It talks about Chinto from a point of view at its roots, Okinawan Karate.

http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/swift/kata.shtml

This kata is said to have been taught to Matsumura Sokon by a Chinese named Chinto, but this legend cannot be corroborated. According to a 1914 newspaper article by Funakoshi Gichin (1867-1957, founder of Shotokan karatedo), based upon the talks of his teacher Asato Anko (1827-1906), student of Matsumura Sokon):

"Those who received instruction from a castaway from Annan in Fuzhou, include: Gusukuma and Kanagusuku (Chinto), Matsumura and Oyadomari (Chinte), Yamasato (Jiin) and Nakasato (Jitte) all of Tomari, who learned the kata separately. The reason being that their teacher was in a hurry to return to his home country." (sic, Shoto, 1914).

It is believed by this author that the "Matsumura" in the above excerpt is a misspelling of Matsumora Kosaku, of Tomari. The fact that Matsumora Kosaku, is evidence that Matsumora may have also been taught this kata as well (Kinjo, 1999).

Now, what exactly is Chinto? There appears a form called Chen Tou in Mandarin Chinese (Jpn. Chinto, lit. Sinking the Head) in Wu Zho Quan (a.k.a. Ngo Cho Kuen, Five Ancestors Fist), which was a style popular in the Quanzhou and Shamen (Amoy) districts of Fujian (Kinjo, 1999). Chen Tou refers to sinking the boy and protecting the head. In the Okinawan Chinto kata, this is the first technique, but in the Five Ancestors Fist it is the last (Kinjo, 1999). However, this being said, this author has yet to see the Chen Tou form to make a comparative analysis. It is, however, worthy of further investigation.

There are 3 distinct "families" of Chinto in modern Okinawan karate: Matsumura/Itosu lineage (performed front to back), Matsumora Kosaku lineage (performed side to side), and Kyan Chotoku lineage (performed on a 45 degree angle). Looking at technical content, we can see that the Matsumora and Kyan versions are nearly identical, which is only natural since Kyan learned this from Matsumora.

I would like this discussion to be about the form itself, its application, lineage and history...and how all of this pertains to TSD.

upnorthkyosa

 

[IMP]

Didn't you just show that to us at class?

Ian

 

[kyosa]

i just taught this form to mr steckelberg who just passed his first dan test. in describing this form to him i told him to think of it almost as 2 forms blended together. the first half of the form has a whole different feel to the second half of the form although they share certain similarities. it is a great form and it takes some time to do the movements properly, let alone understand the applications.

 

[Makalakumu]

There is alot of interesting stuff buried in this form. I am currently working on a set of applications for it. Many of the applications are dealing with various kinds of grabs and they tend to end with vicious throws. There are also a couple of choking applications at the beginning that are pretty interesting.

When I finish breaking it down, I'll post more vids...like I did for Rohai.

 

[SenseiBear]

Very interesting - I would have to guess that the Tang Soo form is of the Itosu lineage, then. I practice the Isshinryu (Kyan) version, and while I see similarities, there are a lot of differences. It would be interesting to break the two down side by side, see what the different takes are... perhaps gain a little understanding of what the original may have been.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is the Isshinryu version of this Kata. It provides an interesting contrast as Senseibear has stated.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu practicioner performing the kyan version of this kata. Very dynamic. Note the striking targets for the kicks.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...33&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

 

[Makalakumu]

I wanted to revive this thread because I've just finished a six month period of extensively focusing on this kata. I know it's not a lot of time, but I have come to some pretty interesting conclusions regardless. I'm going to be posting some videos of applications in the future, so hold on tight. For now, lets discuss the attributes and applications of this kata.

To start things off, how much do you think this kata (the one referenced in the first post) has deviated from its Okinawan roots? How would this affect application?

 

[MBuzzy]

Two big differences that I noticed right off are 1) the difference in direction. I noticed that in the second video, rather than moving north and south, he moved Northwest to Southwest. I'm not sure how that might affect application, although I'd love to hear other thoughts on that.

2) In all of the other versions that I have watched, the characteristic (in TSD and SBD) crane stance is eliminated and replaced with hu gul jaseh or kya cha rip jaseh. I suppose it is the other way around, we have actually eliminated the other stances and replaced them with crane stances. The biggest impact TO ME is that it affect almost ALL of the stories behind the form's history. I've heard a lot of the rumors or a pirate or someone on a ship, someone on a rock, etc, but they all deal with the balance aspect. Take away those stances and balance is no longer an issue....

 

[Makalakumu]

Our Chinto is most similar to the shito ryu/shotokan version. I have not been able to find an Okinawan replica of this form. Only one by Hohan Soken that is sort of familiar.

Here is the shito/shotokan version.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Here is a video of Hohan Soken performing Chinto.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

My guess is that our form comes directly out of that lineage. Now, as to the changes that we see from the various Okinawan versions, I cannot say where they come from. That would be an interesting discussion if any more informed people would care to jump in.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a pretty cool video with some application in it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Notice the variety of techniques that are shown. This is the tip of the iceberg. I've heard it said that Chinto contains a good portion of the Aikido syllabus with strikes. I'm still trying to figure that out with my limited Takeda Ryu experience.

Anyway, I really like the variety of takedowns shown.

 

[MBuzzy]

The first version is almost dead on....so where did the diversion happen?

p.s. UpNorth, all three of the links go to the Chinto Shito Ryu video...

 

[Makalakumu]

Two big differences that I noticed right off are 1) the difference in direction. I noticed that in the second video, rather than moving north and south, he moved Northwest to Southwest. I'm not sure how that might affect application, although I'd love to hear other thoughts on that.

The direction wouldn't have much impact on application all by itself. You've got to look at the move immediately preceeding it in order to understand. Usually, direction changes are takedowns or throws of somekind. The direction you move in the form indicates direction uki is flying.

2) In all of the other versions that I have watched, the characteristic (in TSD and SBD) crane stance is eliminated and replaced with hu gul jaseh or kya cha rip jaseh. I suppose it is the other way around, we have actually eliminated the other stances and replaced them with crane stances. The biggest impact TO ME is that it affect almost ALL of the stories behind the form's history. I've heard a lot of the rumors or a pirate or someone on a ship, someone on a rock, etc, but they all deal with the balance aspect. Take away those stances and balance is no longer an issue....

Han Bal Seo Ke is extant in the versions I posted above. This stance is telling you something about kicking. So is hu gul jasah. A couple of things...

1. The stance is showing how to use the leg to block and attack at the same time.

2. The stance is showing a good location to kick an attacker...the knee.

3. The stance is indicating a knee strike which turns into a front kick of your opponent escapes your clinch. This kick is followed up by a number of techniques.