China: Bans all dogs over 14 inches tall...

[Cruentus]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_...n/20061115133909990016?ncid=NWS00010000000001

China bans all dogs over 14 inches tall. I believe it is just Beijing, and some surrounding areas.

They are Euthanizing dogs by the masses. This is due to a supposed rabies problem. The article states that only about 3% of all dogs in China are vaccinated.

You've got to be ****ing kidding me. How about just enforce vaccination for dogs? Somehow killing all dogs over 14 inches tall is going to stop rabies....uh...what about the small dogs?

The whole thing is both cruel and stupid. Check out the photo's on the site too....

Paul

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_...n/20061115133909990016?ncid=NWS00010000000001

China bans all dogs over 14 inches tall. I believe it is just Beijing, and some surrounding areas.

They are Euthanizing dogs by the masses. This is due to a supposed rabies problem. The article states that only about 3% of all dogs in China are vaccinated.

You've got to be ****ing kidding me. How about just enforce vaccination for dogs? Somehow killing all dogs over 14 inches tall is going to stop rabies....uh...what about the small dogs?

The whole thing is both cruel and stupid. Check out the photo's on the site too....

Paul

What about the other small animals that also carry rabies?

Hmmm, does not sound like a real solution to me.

 

[Jade Tigress]

It's heartbreaking and won't solve a rabies problem.

 

[Xue Sheng]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_...n/20061115133909990016?ncid=NWS00010000000001

China bans all dogs over 14 inches tall. I believe it is just Beijing, and some surrounding areas.

They are Euthanizing dogs by the masses. This is due to a supposed rabies problem. The article states that only about 3% of all dogs in China are vaccinated.

You've got to be ****ing kidding me. How about just enforce vaccination for dogs? Somehow killing all dogs over 14 inches tall is going to stop rabies....uh...what about the small dogs?

The whole thing is both cruel and stupid. Check out the photo's on the site too....

Paul

This is not as easy to solve as you believe

I love dogs and I have had a few and I certainly do not agree with the beating dogs to death, I am certain there are better ways to deal with this but the dog population is getting out of hand there and I suggest going to Beijing and seeing the dogs running around before you jump on them for this.

They are not set up like the US there are virtually NO veterinarians and many people tend to let their dogs run loose (even though they are not suppose to) and in a city the size of Beijing with the population of Beijing packs of large dogs running around would not be a good thing. I believe originally no one was allowed to have a dog and people did not listen to that either.

Yes there are those that take very good car of their dogs their but that is not the norm. Most areas tourists and foreigners go are fairly devoid of dogs but try going to the area that the tourists and foreigners don't go.

Also many do not have access to or the ability to vaccinate their own dogs and that is generally how vaccinations are handled for dogs in Beijing. There is also a GROWING population of people from the countryside that will not vaccinate their dogs, they see no reason too and even if they did they probably cannot afford to.

So although I am appalled by the pictures on the site I do see their side of it.

Beijing is dealing with industrialization, pollution, health issues, population explosions, dogs, pets of all types, massive expansions and renovations the Olympics, North Korean issues, massive disparity between rich and poor, an explosion of cars and associated traffic issues, just to name a few and still it is safer to walk around Beijing at night than just about any major city in the US. These are not excuses just facts to consider here as well.

 

[Stan]

Every couple of weeks I read some news article about China, like this, or about the mobile executioin vans, banning of Wikipedia, or some such, that make me think yet again that mainland China is a surreal farce of a country. It's a horror that one in six people on the earth have to live there. China seems so deeply ****ed up on so many levels that the mass killing of dogs is certainly not the worst thing happening there. Things will not change in China until INDIVIDUAL lives, rather than the life of the nation, the party or "society" are put first.

 

[Kreth]

It seems to me that beating dogs to death would increase the likelihood of spreading rabies, if they are infected.

 

[mrhnau]

I love dogs and I have had a few and I certainly do not agree with the beating dogs to death, I am certain there are better ways to deal with this but the dog population is getting out of hand there and I suggest going to Beijing and seeing the dogs running around before you jump on them for this.

They are not set up like the US there are virtually NO veterinarians and many people tend to let their dogs run loose (even though they are not suppose to) and in a city the size of Beijing with the population of Beijing packs of large dogs running around would not be a good thing. I believe originally no one was allowed to have a dog and people did not listen to that either.

Yes there are those that take very good car of their dogs their but that is not the norm. Most areas tourists and foreigners go are fairly devoid of dogs but try going to the area that the tourists and foreigners don't go.

Also many do not have access to or the ability to vaccinate their own dogs and that is generally how vaccinations are handled for dogs in Beijing. There is also a GROWING population of people from the countryside that will not vaccinate their dogs, they see no reason too and even if they did they probably cannot afford to.

Couple of things...

You say Dogs are not in the public area for tourist/foreigners to see? How on earth do they accomplish that? Dogs don't exactly know which streets to avoid, at least not naturally.

Not alot of vets? Why not open a school or recruit from other areas/countries? There are enough intellegent people there. They should be able to field a great number of vet school students.

Can't afford vaccination? Why not get the government to get vaccinations? They are not incredibly expensive.

 

[MA-Caver]

It seems to me that beating dogs to death would increase the likelihood of spreading rabies, if they are infected.

Well they shure as hell can't shoot 'em now can they? Ban against guns they got already... but rabies is so rare now-a-days that actually they've little to worry about. But still, the wholesale slaughter of these animals and most of them would be innocent...

Yeah it's kinda stupid thinking that only BIG dogs have the capacity of getting rabies. Eventually some small dog is going to bite someone and then they'll ban all dogs and soon after that I can bet they'll ban any other household pets. Even... cats.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Couple of things...

You say Dogs are not in the public area for tourist/foreigners to see? How on earth do they accomplish that? Dogs don't exactly know which streets to avoid, at least not naturally..

You never see a stray dog in the Forbidden City, summer palace, temple of heaven or any other tourist attraction or motels the tourists are in. Many of the tourist areas are behind ancient walls.

Not alot of vets? Why not open a school or recruit from other areas/countries? There are enough intellegent people there. They should be able to field a great number of vet school students..

And pay for this how? We are all looking at China from the perspective of a Westerner and I am sorry but they frankly do not care what we think.

This is BeijingChina not New York City USA, which by the way is much much smaller than Beijing. And to be very honest as much as we in the west believe they are oppressive evil overlords in the Chinese government they are not. No the chinese peple do not have the same freedoms we do in the west and most of them do not care. Most rules in china appear for the most part to be suggested and if you have a dog of 14 inches and money you have nothing to worry about anyways they have the same governmental corruption we have here. Most do not follow the rules unless someone is right there to enforce them. Dogs were not allowed before and people still went out and got them.

Can't afford vaccination? Why not get the government to get vaccinations? They are not incredibly expensive.

Do you have any idea the size and scope of the undertaking that would be, or how much that would cost? Do you have any idea of the size of Beijing, the number of people in Beijing or the number of dogs in Beijing?

OK dump a few thousand or more dogs in NYC, wait a few years, now go find them all and give them vaccinations and Beijing is considerably larger than NYC.

The simple fact that some of the people that have moved to Beijing form the countryside don't have working toilets and the government is working at improving living conditions and modernizing the city and cleaning up pollution and a multitude of other issues too.

As much as I do not like it, dogs are not high on the list to the Chinese government. Don't get me wrong I do really like dogs and awful lot and I do not like what is going on at all. But this is actually, if I remember correctly, is a much softer stance than they originally talked about, they were going to allow any dogs, so people went out and got more dogs, generally samll dogs. Then I believe they told people they could have dogs but only small ones so what did the people do they went out and got bigger dogs. This is not new in China this has been going on for years, we are just hearing about it though.

And to be honest I am not convinced that what is posted is actually going on. Vilifying China based on what we get from the Western news is not exactly the way to go; we do not get the whole truth or on occasion the real story. But then again vilifying the US based on the news you get in China is not the way to go either.

 

[Cruentus]

This is not as easy to solve as you believe

I love dogs and I have had a few and I certainly do not agree with the beating dogs to death, I am certain there are better ways to deal with this but the dog population is getting out of hand there and I suggest going to Beijing and seeing the dogs running around before you jump on them for this.

There are many other solutions to this problem then the one proposed, and the things you mentioned are a bunch of excuses that don't amount to anything. They could do other things, such as provide clinics where people pay to have their pets vaccinated, and have laws that require it. You don't need a vet to administer vaccines; many times it is the vets assistants that do that anyhow.

It boils down to the willingness to violate civil liberties, and the willingness to destroy another living, conscious creature. If your willing to do that, then their solutions seems excusable.

As much as I do not like it, dogs are not high on the list to the Chinese government.

And, obviously they are if they are willing to spend valuable money, time, and personel to create and enforce a dog ban.

 

[Stan]

This is BeijingChina not New York City USA, which by the way is much much smaller than Beijing. And to be very honest as much as we in the west believe they are oppressive evil overlords in the Chinese government they are not. No the chinese peple do not have the same freedoms we do in the west and most of them do not care. Most rules in china appear for the most part to be suggested and if you have a dog of 14 inches and money you have nothing to worry about anyways they have the same governmental corruption we have here. Most do not follow the rules unless someone is right there to enforce them. Dogs were not allowed before and people still went out and got them.

The issue isn't just dogs. The issue is that China seems to think it can jail and kill its problems away.

Human organ harvesting
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/2001/3792.htm


Infanticide
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/12/15/112856.shtml

Torture
http://faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/

Death vans for political prisoners
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/May2003/China

Animal torture
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0425-09.htm

What an inhuman, backward, reprehensible society and government! It truly sickens me. If such a country ever really becomes a "superpower", God help us all!

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are many other solutions to this problem then the one proposed, and the things you mentioned are a bunch of excuses that don't amount to anything. They could do other things, such as provide clinics where people pay to have their pets vaccinated, and have laws that require it. You don't need a vet to administer vaccines; many times it is the vets assistants that do that anyhow.

It boils down to the willingness to violate civil liberties, and the willingness to destroy another living, conscious creature. If your willing to do that, then their solutions seems excusable.



And, obviously they are if they are willing to spend valuable money, time, and personel to create and enforce a dog ban.

I am a dog/animal lover and I frankly think people in the US that abuse dogs or any animal should be charged with a felony and due jail time but we are not talking the US here and the Same response as tthe one to Mrhnau would apply here.

I doubt they are spending much time or money on it at all, I doubt the validity of the story, or at best I doubt its the whole truth.

I said they originally old people no dogs and people went and got them they then said ok only small dogs and people went out and got bigger dogs. It is not like this would be a surprise to people of Beijing, although it certainly is not the dogs fault, eventually the government would respond.

And I am sorry but those excuses you are talking about are facts. Beijing is huge, immense, gigantic and it is modernizing faster than it can keep up with and the numbers of people moving in from the country side is stagering.

Also like I said in my previous post; take a few thousand dogs and release them in NYC wait a couple of years, now go find them all and vaccinate them. And NYC it not all that big by comparison to Beijing.

Call it what you will they have a lot of issues that are high on their agenda and I doubt dogs are one of them.

I am rather amazed at how fast people of the west are quick to pick up the Evil china issue based on a story that is likely not the whole truth.

I am equally amazed at how quick Chinese people in China judge the US based on the same half stories

Ever hear about falun gong, ever here the story they tell about china, ever read their publications about china? Many Americans have and they are so very quick to jump on the Chinese government Evil oppressors band wagon and the truth is most of what fulan gong says is at best half truth and generally lies and propaganda but we here in the west take them in and give them asylum and the truth is they are a cult and we bought it hook line and sinker.

Dogs in Beijing, yup their are lots of them but I doubt the government is truly spending much if anything on it. I seriously doubt there are dog death squads rolling around Beijing killing dogs.

And if you want an issue to deal with in China look to the South, Dogs are food there. Are the pictures posted from Beijing? Are the people in the pictures of the dog being beaten to death from the government or people form the countryside of the south that live in Beijing looking for food?

Some people also catch birds in parks and pigeons to eat too in Beijing, as well as many other cities in China. I don't like it, I don't agree with it but it is not the US it is China and it has been China for over 4000 years. And as far as they are concerned the West does not dictate to them anymore than China dictates to the West.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The issue isn't just dogs. The issue is that China seems to think it can jail and kill its problems away.

Human organ harvesting
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/2001/3792.htm

"removing organs from executed prisoners" Can't refute this it is true.

Infanticide
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/12/15/112856.shtml

Interesting story, old news, but interesting. But then may I ask why people in the countryside have more than one child and my sister-inlaw is having a second child and my brother-in-law has 2 childern?

Yes they had a one child policy and yes they have a generation of one child families but they currently have no porblem wit families having greater than 1 child and most of the one child families are in the city where they were not forced into it they just excepted it for the reasons they were told, to many people not enough food if this keeps up. Many of the orphanages are full of girls mainly because the people in the countryside want boys not girls. It is not what the story says, sorry.

Torture
http://faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/

This one is just plain not acceptable as truth it is from Fulan Gong

Death vans for political prisoners
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/May2003/China

Previously they just shot them and no one seemed to care, why now the outrage. I was upset back when they were shooting them.

Animal torture
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0425-09.htm

What an inhuman, backward, reprehensible society and government! It truly sickens me. If such a country ever really becomes a "superpower", God help us all!

You have made your decision and you highly dislike China therefore any and all negative press you read you believe.

Some of what you post is very true while others are seriously questionable. Anything from Fulan Gong is seriously questionable, the truth is out there but it ain't coming form Fulan Gong, or a .

And it is pretty much already a superpower already, they have big city skyscrapers too.

And it is the fulan gong story and your response to it that proves my point. I do not know if what was originally posted is true, we generally do not get the whole story in the West. If you base any decision on anything from Fulan Gong about China you believe their propaganda. If you believe Fulan Gong there are no Communist party members left in China there paper once listed the number of people that resigned and it was greater that the number that was in. They also talked about protest in NYC that had millions of people that they held, but strangely the US news never seemed to mention it at all. There are many more of their stories out there that are not true so if you are going to judge China on what you read at least do not use them as a source.

But this is getting way off post, sorry.

 

[Stan]

"removing organs from executed prisoners" Can't refute this it is true.




Interesting story, old news, but interesting. But then may I ask why people in the countryside have more than one child and my sister-inlaw is having a second child and my brother-in-law has 2 childern?

Yes they had a one child policy and yes they have a generation of one child families but they currently have no porblem wit families having greater than 1 child and most of the one child families are in the city where they were not forced into it they just excepted it for the reasons they were told, to many people not enough food if this keeps up. Many of the orphanages are full of girls mainly because the people in the countryside want boys not girls. It is not what the story says, sorry.



This one is just plain not acceptable as truth it is from Fulan Gong



Previously they just shot them and no one seemed to care, why now the outrage. I was upset back when they were shooting them.



You have made your decision and you highly dislike China therefore any and all negative press you read you believe.

Some of what you post is very true while others are seriously questionable. Anything from Fulan Gong is seriously questionable, the truth is out there but it ain't coming form Fulan Gong, or a .

And it is pretty much already a superpower already, they have big city skyscrapers too.

And it is the fulan gong story and your response to it that proves my point. I do not know if what was originally posted is true, we generally do not get the whole story in the West. If you base any decision on anything from Fulan Gong about China you believe their propaganda. If you believe Fulan Gong there are no Communist party members left in China there paper once listed the number of people that resigned and it was greater that the number that was in. They also talked about protest in NYC that had millions of people that they held, but strangely the US news never seemed to mention it at all. There are many more of their stories out there that are not true so if you are going to judge China on what you read at least do not use them as a source.

But this is getting way off post, sorry.

First of all, I accept that I might not be getting the whole truth about political prisoners and Falun Gong. What, I ask you, in your opinion is the full truth? What is up with Falun Gong? How should the government legitimately treat them? I know they are a cult. I hate cults. I'm an atheist. But that doesn't mean they don't have a right to practice.

About the political prisoners, the "death van" makes the news because it is particularly haunting and dystopian. The issue isn't how China executes political prisoners, its that it executes them, or even keeps political prisoners in the first place. If you don't agree with this then we have nothing to talk about.


And if a Falun Gong website is not reputable for listing tortures done to Falun Gong members, is a Jewish website not reputable for information about the Holocaust? No one would imply that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First of all, I accept that I might not be getting the whole truth about political prisoners and Falun Gong. What, I ask you, in your opinion is the full truth? What is up with Falun Gong? How should the government legitimately treat them? I know they are a cult. I hate cults. I'm an atheist. But that doesn't mean they don't have a right to practice.

About the political prisoners, the "death van" makes the news because it is particularly haunting and dystopian. The issue isn't how China executes political prisoners, its that it executes them, or even keeps political prisoners in the first place. If you don't agree with this then we have nothing to talk about.

I already said I was upset by the execution practices long ago before the execution vans appeared. But I still doubt we have much to talk about your decision is made already.

The government pretty much ignores Fulan Gong and is incredibly happy they are being taken in by the US. It is what Fulan Gong says is happening and what they say has happened is not much if at all truthful.

I do not have time to go into the whole story right now nor is this the post for it. This is a post about Dogs in China not Chinese cults in the US.

And if a Falun Gong website is not reputable for listing tortures done to Falun Gong members, is a Jewish website not reputable for information about the Holocaust? No one would imply that.

Not comparable.

What happened to the Jews is real therefore it is reputable. What is claimed to have happen to Fulan Gong by Fulan Gong is fantasy and propaganda therefore it is not reputable.

But if you are comparing Fulan Gong and Judaism in this aspect and on the other hand admit Fulan Gong is a cult then you are walking a very dangerous thin line on this comparison and I would not go there.

But once again this is WAY off post.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In an attempt to get this back on topic of which I am guilty of assisting in getting it off topic.

This story and discussion intrigued me enough to go out on a limb here and talk to someone from Beijing and make a call to my family in Beijing to see what this is about and I hope you all appreciate it because now they not only think I am martial arts crazy they not just think I am just a plain crazy American. Calling at 7:00 am on a Tuesday (Beijing time) to ask about the dogs, what am I nuts and my wife agrees with them.

And as I said we are not getting the whole story here.

The main issues are (1) unlicensed dogs. 80% of the dogs in Beijing are not licensed. If the dog is licensed there is nothing to worry about. The dog is legal and is vaccinated regularly and will not be killed. If someone is worried about their dog all they need do is license it. The reason they do not just go do that is because a dog license in Beijing is about 5000 Yuan. (Divide that by 8 and you roughly have it in US dollars, about $625) After that all your dog needs are taken care of.

(2) Rabies: Unlicensed dogs cannot get vaccinated; therefore they are very afraid of an outbreak of rabies since there are currently 80% of the dogs unlicensed.

As to why they don’t educate or do citywide vaccinations, on top of what I originally posted it is this. Why would they since all the people need do is get a license and the government vaccinates the dog?

And as the man once said that’s the rest of the story.

 

[Tez3]

I would ban all dogs under 14 inches especially those little things that women carry around in bags, dress up and generally treat as little babies!

 

[Cruentus]

Xue Sheng,

First of all, I should make it clear for the record that I am not bashing another country or culture just to bash them; I am being highly critical of practices towards dogs as reported in that article. So, the rest of the criticisms here towards the government and so forth are not really what I mean to discuss. I don't really want to turn this into a "bash China" thead.

2nd, I am glad that you called your contacts from Beijing to get a different take on the story. But, you need to see this from my perspective. Your response wasn't, "Hey, I know people who live in China and this news story doesn't seem accurate; we need more information." Your response was what read to me a list of excuses as to why it would be somehow O.K. or at least understandable for the Chinese government to behave in the cited manner, with a "the story might not even be true" thrown in for good measure. So, you will have to excuse my skepticism because it seemed as if your intent was to defend China to the best of your ability, not seek objective evidence or truth.

But, you calling someone to get more of the story is at least a good start, although anecdotal. I will be looking for more info on this issue to see if there is some other evidence that the cited story is inaccurate. I will happily stand corrected if it is, because I would hate things to be as bad as the article described!

Yours,

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

So, here we go...

Article says that big dogs are banned, with only a 10 day warning to relocate the animals issued. 54,000 dogs destroyed in Yunnan. It is implied that larger dogs are banned regardless of licensing, but it is not directly said. Also reference to police by the 100's, blockades, search and seizures, etc., all refuting the idea that China could "care less" about enforcing dog policies. "Grace Ge Gabriel, the Asia director for the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said her group agreed that dog owners should vaccinate their pets and register them. But she said Beijing’s current ban against big dogs was wrongheaded because it was based on the premise that they are more vicious.":
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/world/asia/14dogs.html
Same article in Chinese publication: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-11/14/content_733050.htm

How about from the Shanghai Daily? That doesn't sound like American "biased" media to me. It attempts to create a positive, or at least and unbaised spin. But yet again it states that "large breeds" and "aggressive dogs" (whatever that means) are being banned, along with crackdowns on many things, with "breeds" among them:
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/art/2006/11/14/297091/Police_firm_on_dog_control_measures.htm

Or, how about from China.org, translated from another Chinese paper? Here it specifically states that dogs over 35cm are on the banned list, and that licensing a dog on the banned list does not make it legal. It also makes reference to many pet hospitals and so forth, thus flying in the face of the idea that "there are barely any vets in Beijing." http://www.china.org.cn/english/2006/Sep/181459.htm

This article also talks of dogs being seized from homes, and any dog over 35cm (14") being confiscated. Talks about dogs being beaten and killed in the streets. Also mentions that many groups have been suggesting the same things of licensing and vaccination requirements rather then current policies. Gives contact information for those who would like to help the cause to fight against this attrocity.: http://network.bestfriends.org/international/news/9191.html

From "The Shanghiist." Mentions many things already mentioned, specifically that the hope for the Chinese government is to erradicate all medium/large dogs. References a middle school girl who jumped out a 15 story window when the government came to take her dog. http://www.shanghaiist.com/archives/2006/11/07/dog_days_in_chi.php

Also from the Shanghi Daily. "Police say the "one-dog policy" is aimed at reducing the number of dog bites to lower rabies risk. Dangerous dogs or dogs taller than 35cm, such as mastiffs, Dobermans, Saint Bernards and Great Danes, are banned." And I loooove this quote: "China only set limits on the number of dogs a family can have, the size of the dogs and the species. It will never ban dog-raising," he (Bao Suixian of Public Security Management Bureau ) said. Article also talks of instituting manditory digital dog chips. So I guess the left behind series has come true for these animals in China. : http://www.shanghaidaily.com/art/2006/11/15/297167/Dog_control___039_strict__but_civilized__039_.htm

So...

It looks like there is a whole heck of a lot of evidence, from both American and Chinese publications, that support the original article that initially started this thread. After going through PAGES of searches, I didn't find 1 ioda of evidence to support what your family told you over the phone, Xue Sheng. So, it would appear that your contacts don't know the extent of this issue. It is about the same as what I ran into with Ontario's dog breed ban; most people who's lives weren't effected didn't know the extent of the problem; most understandably don't want to believe what is true. I think that they'd better do a little research to find out what attrocities their own government is up too.

But, so far all the evidence I have seen unfortunatily points to the facts that the Chinese government is violating civil liberties and committing mass attrocities against another conscious mammel; dogs.

There is no excuse for this.

Last thing here: it was referenced more then once that people mentioned that they would physically fight for their animals if they were attempted to be siezed. I say go for it. I think they should stand up and fight for their rights with all that they have...

Paul

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tulisan

I posted and then edited a long tirade and I apologize for that, but you know you say you are not bashing and then go look for reasons to bash.

You acknowledge or at least admit there is a different take on the story although still not saying that it is the simple fact that we do not get the whole story here and then post more stories from China that support your indignation. And for the record it does not matter who it is from if it is for a non-Chinese audience. Which leads me to do you read Chinese or are the posted stories translations?

And then again you go look for stories that imply to support your indignation and give you reason to well, bash.

You call things that are truths and facts excuses so you can maintain your indignation. Go to Beijing and look around, particularly in the old neighborhoods and non-tourist areas. I will admit I based some of my previous post on my observations from being in Beijing and because I realized that I decided to call the people I know that live there and I confused them and made no difference here. If nothing else I gave them much ammo to tease the living daylights out of me for years to come, so I guess it was not all bad.

Although no one asked me I am very sorry I wasted my time and inconvenienced my family to try and alleviate yours or anyone else’s upset.

You made your decision when you made your first post. China was wrong and the story was 100% true, sorry I got involved.

And I am sorry if a Westerner defending China is a problem here, I tend to look for truth before I get indignant these days a lesson I learned the hard way years ago.

Oh and one more thing, feel free to get news from anywhere else in China, I have family only in Beijing and I will not call them again about anything here on MT. Nor will I get involved further in your post.

EDIT: Wait that is not exaclty correct, I believe I may have family in Henan too. But not to worry, I won't call them.

Happy Thanksgiving