Carpathian Mountain Axe

[lklawson]

Ken Pfrenger taught a class on the fokos this year at the Recreational Violence seminar.

I have to say, it was a lot more interesting than what I remembered of the last time I saw it. Way cool, actually.

He's got a wordpress site for it: http://oprishki.wordpress.com/

I might have to give it some more consideration for personal study.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[arnisador]

How heavy is a real one?

 

[lklawson]

Fairly heavy, actually. It's end-weighted with what I consider a thick shaft. It's nowhere as heavy as a modern wood axe nor is the shaft as heavy as a modern shaped axe-handle, but they're heavier than a tomahawk.

It's definitely a tool where you get it in motion and then "give it its head" so to speak. You're never going to be able to flick it about like a Smallsword. Circling/Moulinet and two-handed movements rule the day with this tool.

One drill we did was a one-handed moulinet (circling "cut") transitioned into an overhead (pronated) thrust to the head. It was difficult to get the feel for and you couldn't "force" it unless you had poppeye arms.

The combat strategy of the tool reminded me a great deal of Military Saber and Highland Broadsword in that circling cuts and "chops" (sometimes called "the throw") are required because the weight of the weapon makes wrist-flicks very difficult and slow.

In a lot of ways it's also similar to tomahawk work, in that, again, it's an end-weighted and somewhat "unwieldy" weapon. There were also some defensive movements that I intend to blatantly steal and import into my tomahawk work if I can adapt them properly.

The circling flow actually gives it a very appealing aesthetic. I found it to be much more effective (and even attractive) than what first impressions would have me believe from just picking up the weapon. (Amazing what actual instruction can teach, huh? hehehe )

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MA-Caver]

Anyone can find a photo of it? I did a search but was shown several so not sure what exactly which is which.

Also the term "recreational violence" is rather interesting oxymoron don't you think?

 

[lklawson]

Anyone can find a photo of it? I did a search but was shown several so not sure what exactly which is which.

Pickie from: http://www.polartcenter.com/Polish_Ciupagi_Mountaineer_s_Walking_Sticks_s/298.htm

It goes by any number of names depending upon the ethnic group. Fokos, Ciupaga, Valaska, etc. Lots of variations in basic design too.

Also the term "recreational violence" is rather interesting oxymoron don't you think?

Not really.

Honestly, what we are doing is "violence" when you get right down to it. Martial Arts, at their most basic level are about hurting people and breaking their toys. Yes, there are lots of "self improvement" and other benefits and directions that MA has taken in modern times, but, at its roots: Violence. And, again, being honest, for most of us, what we're doing is recreational. If it weren't fun we probably wouldn't keep doing it. However, the reason that we chose this particular name is because of an article written by a researcher describing various historic cultures which literally did engage, for various cultural reasons, in violence (usually civilian) for no apparent reason other than recreation. The article was entitled, "The Agreeable Pastime of Recreational Violence." The article explored the Irish among others. Because Ken has done a fair amount of research in Irish Martial Arts and the first seminar was the "Cumann Bhata Western Martial Arts Seminar" (an Irish name), we decided to use "Recreational Violence" as a catchy nick.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Ken Pfrenger]

I am glad you enjoyed the axe class Kirk...there was lots more to cover but we got the basics pretty well covered I think.

A note on the weight. I only brought one actual mountain axe and it leans towards the heavier side, which I like, some axes can be quit a bit lighter and easier to move about. But you know me Kirk, I like things a bit heavy.

 

[lklawson]

I am glad you enjoyed the axe class Kirk...there was lots more to cover but we got the basics pretty well covered I think.

A note on the weight. I only brought one actual mountain axe and it leans towards the heavier side, which I like, some axes can be quit a bit lighter and easier to move about. But you know me Kirk, I like things a bit heavy.

Time permitting, I'll probably make this vid into one of the DVDs "available for purchase" like your Dempsey and Combining Bata, Boxing, and Grappling.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Ken Pfrenger]

Cool! How about I send you a little bit of extra footage to add to it before you make it avalable?

 

[lklawson]

Cool! How about I send you a little bit of extra footage to add to it before you make it available?

I should be able to tack on additional video without too much of a problem.

Bear in mind that I'm still dubbing out to DVDs for instructors so there's no rush.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[James Kovacich]

I've been interested in these types of tomahawks for a while.

http://www.osograndeknives.com/United/united_uc1418_black_ronin_tomahawk_w__black_nylon_sheath.htm

 

[Jenna]

Pickie from: http://www.polartcenter.com/Polish_Ciupagi_Mountaineer_s_Walking_Sticks_s/298.htm

It goes by any number of names depending upon the ethnic group. Fokos, Ciupaga, Valaska, etc. Lots of variations in basic design too.


Not really.

Honestly, what we are doing is "violence" when you get right down to it. Martial Arts, at their most basic level are about hurting people and breaking their toys. Yes, there are lots of "self improvement" and other benefits and directions that MA has taken in modern times, but, at its roots: Violence. And, again, being honest, for most of us, what we're doing is recreational. If it weren't fun we probably wouldn't keep doing it. However, the reason that we chose this particular name is because of an article written by a researcher describing various historic cultures which literally did engage, for various cultural reasons, in violence (usually civilian) for no apparent reason other than recreation. The article was entitled, "The Agreeable Pastime of Recreational Violence." The article explored the Irish among others. Because Ken has done a fair amount of research in Irish Martial Arts and the first seminar was the "Cumann Bhata Western Martial Arts Seminar" (an Irish name), we decided to use "Recreational Violence" as a catchy nick.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think that is the same as the Sokyra, no?? My nanna would have one of those hung on her wall from the old country. There is much folk tradition around the sokyra you know including the sokyra tanec similar to the highland sword dancing of Scotland.. Thank you for posting I am thrilled that the martial tradition of the area is still alive I have not been back there for a lifetime.. Jenna xo

 

[lklawson]

I think that is the same as the Sokyra, no??

Could be. I'll take your word on it.

My nanna would have one of those hung on her wall from the old country. There is much folk tradition around the sokyra you know including the sokyra tanec similar to the highland sword dancing of Scotland.. Thank you for posting I am thrilled that the martial tradition of the area is still alive I have not been back there for a lifetime.. Jenna xo

Some of the research draws on the dances, though not too heavily.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Ken Pfrenger]

Ressurecting an old thread since I have not been on here in forever...

Yes this would be the same as the sokyra and yes the tanec sokyra is a source for a good bit of the material I use. Kirk is just dance insensitive

 

[lklawson]

Yes this would be the same as the sokyra and yes the tanec sokyra is a source for a good bit of the material I use. Kirk is just dance insensitive

I dance like a 40-something year old bald white guy, so go figure.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk