Can we achieve Remy's skill?

[hardheadjarhead]

Dan Anderson and I...and some others...have briefly argued over whether one can achieve Professor Presas' level of skill. For background on this argument, check the thread "Gen2Arnis".

I thought I'd open it up here so we could stay on topic in that thread and not digress too far into this subject.

I submit we can't achieve his level of skill, because he was a product of his life experiences combined with natural gifts of power, speed, reflexes, etc. His skill, I posit, is unique to him alone.

Dan states that his goal is to break the art down so ANYBODY can achieve Remy's level of skill.

Thoughts?

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Cruentus]

I agree that there will never be another Remy Presas. There will never be another Steve Scott or Paul Janulis either.

I both agree and disagree with what Dan's objective.

I think trying to create a system designed to make someone as good as Remy Presas is futile, because as it has been said before, no one is going to go through the same experiences with the same attributes as him. Someone may have better or worse attributes, or better or worse experiences, but they won't be the same.

Remy Presas himself could not create a system to make us "like him."

However, does this mean that there won't be some who can match his abilities or even exceed them? I think that to believe we can't achieve high levels of skill is selling ourselves short.

Our goals should be simply to be the best that we can. Our goals as teachers is to give people the tools so they can be the best they can be.

So, in terms of Dan's objective to define a method to allow people to be the best they can be, I think that this is a great objective.

If the objective is to come up with a formula to achieve RP's skill level, such as if you do A, B, and C, then your there, I am afraid that this is an unachievable goal. What each individual has to do to be the best they can be will vary per student, and only the student him(her)self can find the ingredients within. As teachers, we can only provide the tools so they can be the best that they can. I am afraid that is all we can do.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dan Anderson and I...and some others...have briefly argued...

Argued? Debated, yes. You and I have not had a heated exchange so there's been no arguement in my eyes.

I agree that there will never be another Remy Presas. There will never be another Steve Scott or Paul Janulis either.

Paul,
Your left me out.

I both agree and disagree with what Dan's objective.

Fair enough.

I think trying to create a system designed to make someone as good as Remy Presas is futile, because as it has been said before, no one is going to go through the same experiences with the same attributes as him. Someone may have better or worse attributes, or better or worse experiences, but they won't be the same.

Remy Presas himself could not create a system to make us "like him."

However, does this mean that there won't be some who can match his abilities or even exceed them? I think that to believe we can't achieve high levels of skill is selling ourselves short.

A system designed to make someone as good as Remy Presas. Hmmmm. I can see how what I wrote would make someone think MA-80 is an attempt to make "Remy clones." How's this? A system to compliment one's techniques with the understanding of how they work and how RP made them work so that they can attempt or even achieve and possibly surpass the skills or Remy Presas. Awfully lofty and not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination but not impossible, either.

Our goals should be simply to be the best that we can. Our goals as teachers is to give people the tools so they can be the best they can be.

So, in terms of Dan's objective to define a method to allow people to be the best they can be, I think that this is a great objective.

If the objective is to come up with a formula to achieve RP's skill level, such as if you do A, B, and C, then you're there, I am afraid that this is an unachievable goal.

Yep. Too many variables there per individual.

What each individual has to do to be the best they can be will vary per student, and only the student him(her)self can find the ingredients within. As teachers, we can only provide the tools so they can be the best that they can. I am afraid that is all we can do.

Which is the exact point of MA-80. RP's skill level is the example, the goal to shoot for. Each individual's personal goal can reach that far or at all points in between, which is their own choice.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Guro Harold]

I like to think of this topic as the difference between the Possible and the Probable.

My example since I am from North Carolina will be Michael Jordan.

Can another basketball player come from Wilmington, NC; go to UNC-Chapel Hill; help to win one NCAA championship; make it to the pros; and then win all the championships that he and the Bulls did; and make the contributions that he did.

Well its possible, why?

- Raised in a great state .
- Learned to play basketball at a regular playground.
- Attended and played public school after survived being cut off the team at first (most stay cut).
- Graduated from high school (some don't make it).
- Attends a division I school with one of the winningest coaches of all time (most don't make it this far).
- Wins a college championship (reduces the population again).
- Drafted by the NBA, plays and doesn't get career ending injury (ok, most eliminated here).
- Wins numerous championships (1% probability) !!!

So it is possible to have another Michael Jordon and Remy A. Presas to come around but the probability is small for anytime soon.

Well, what should we do then, give up and settle for the "Oki-Dok?" No, would would Grandmaster Presas want that? So at least we can continue to set a standard of excellence and have our students be pointed to it and be inspired by that.

So it that regard, Mr. Anderson and those peer instructors who share the same desire should be commended.

Best regards,

Harold

 

[stickarts]

I don't think that "everyone" can achieve Remy's skill level because it just isn't going to be in everyones genetics, (i have seen some folks train for years and the coordination improves some, but just really is never there) however, there are those that can definately achhieve it. As mentioned previously, it would take great sacrifice, more than most are willing to give.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Argued? Debated, yes. You and I have not had a heated exchange so there's been no arguement in my eyes.

I don't consider argument to necessarily be a heated exchange. One can have a heated debate, or a civil argument. I didn't think it was heated, either.

Something Paul and others touched upon...there will only be one Steve Scott or Paul Janulis. There will be only one Remy.

His build, his passion, his focus, his strength, his technical knowledge base, experience, pain threshold, speed, reaction time, plyometric explosiveness...all were unique to him.

Put your life on hold, get subsidized by a Bill Gates so that you could focus all your efforts in leisure and without worry or want, and you might become world caliber. By some standards you might exceed his skill in certain areas. But you will not have his panache. Personality makes up much of the fighter.

With the proper circumstances and right training can ANYONE reach that level (your words, Dan) of ability? No. Can someone? Maybe. But again, they won't have his unique flair and style. They'll have their own.

Put another way...can ANYONE walking into a boxing gym, if given the right training circumstances and instruction from Angelo Dundee (assuming he's still alive and willing) become as skilled as Muhammed Ali circa 1968? Well...we're waiting. Where is he/she?

Again...Ali and Remy were product of their experiences. Much of Remy's talent was the product of his training with Bacon and others...and his fights. His upbringing. His run-ins with less than savory individuals who wanted to hurt him. No one can replicate those experiences, and they all contributed key elements to the skill that we saw. Not everyone is 200 plus pounds of power packed into a short muscular frame (pre-fitness kick, circa 1997). Not everyone is going to have hands like hams that hurt like Hell when he smacks you with a palm on the shoulder.

So...only one Remy. Only one Paul Janulis. Some are extremely glad there will be only one Steve Scott. Many rejoice that I have not left any direct descendants carrying my aberrant genes out into the world.

Consider that vasectomy my gift to humanity.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[MJS]

To think that everyone that is learning a system will be able to move the same way is crazy. You can take 3 different people of various height and weight, show them the same exact move and I guarentee that they will not all move the same way. Everybody that learns an art, especially something like Arnis, will need to make some small change to make the tech. work for him/her. If a person is big, strong, etc. he will most likely rely on that to make the tech. work. Is this the best thing? IMO, no, because they have no understanding of the tech. On the other side if you take a small person, they will need to have that tech. to make the stuff work.

Again, while there was only 1 RP, and chances are there might not be someone who is a clone of him, but again, like Dan said, with the proper mindset, anything is possible.

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Good observations on the needs of the individual. Read on.

So anyone, with the proper mindset, can be as good as Remy? This is what you and Dan are saying. He has said if you break it down properly then it is possible for anyone to do this. You both indicate that with proper mindset, it can be done...so this is the second of two criteria for this level of excellence.

How about a 73 year old woman, five feet, one half inch tall, one hundred and ten pounds, Japanese American with a history of rheumatic fever and open heart surgery?

How about a kid with severe dyslexia but no other cognitive impairments?

How about a kid with severe dyslexia and cerebral palsy?

How about a kid with significant motor coordination problems, seizure disorder, and Asperger's syndrome?

How about a child with a prosthetic leg?

How about a child who has vision correctable to 20/400?

How about the fiftiesh mom with rheumatoid arthritis, and walks with a cane?

How about the teenager with chronic anxiety and depression whose medication doesn't work and has no self esteem?

These are all very real people, understand. My black belts and I have trained them in martial arts. With these people it is a major accomplishment facing their fears and getting on the mat. They constantly surprise themselves and me...but it isn't politically inappropriate to say that for them to reach Remy's level of skill is an impossibility

Nobody needs to talk to me about goal setting or positive mental outlook. I teach these people about it and they teach me about it. For some of them, getting their left sorted from their right in footwork drills is a six month goal. That sort of accomplishment, in my mind, is heroic.

It is enough that a person run the New York Marathon on the stumps of his legs and his fists. He doesn't need to try and believe he'll reach Bill Roger's speed.

This guy, and the others I mentioned above, are the metaphors for the rest of us who have fewer limitations. It is enough to excel. It is enough to have a positive outlook. To say we can attain that which is rationally and realistically beyond us is not only delusional, it is self abusive. Our vain idealism carries us into disappointment and disillusionment.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Good observations on the needs of the individual. Read on.

So anyone, with the proper mindset, can be as good as Remy? This is what you and Dan are saying. He has said if you break it down properly then it is possible for anyone to do this. You both indicate that with proper mindset, it can be done...so this is the second of two criteria for this level of excellence.

. . .

How about a kid with severe dyslexia but no other cognitive impairments?

. . .

Regards,

Steve Scott

Steve,

I have a mild form of lexdysia, or Dyslexia, and one of my Seniors and Training partners has a much more severe case of dyslexia and this can actually be an advantage. As many times he can reproduce something from both sides.

To me the greatest invention of all time was the spell checker.

I agree that some physical issues are not easy to overcome.

Yet, there will always be the exceptions.

:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Rich,

Sure...I agree there will always be exceptions. There will likely be, someday, a Modern Arnisador who will take his or her skill levels through the roof and accomplish some pretty awesome things. People will equate him/her with Remy, and deservedly so. This is speculation, of course...but I'd lay my money on it, if I had any.

What I'm saying is that to use the absolute term "anyone" in suggesting this ascension in skill is misleading. Some of us simply won't be able to do that. I'm asking for a "reality check" here.

As for your dyslexia, I've run into the form you describe, and it can indeed be advantageous. There are several forms of dyslexia, and different degrees, as you're well aware. These kids had a very bad form of it. Their spatial perception was severely handicapped, and they were enrolled in a school specializing in learning disabilities. One got a brown belt with me, the other earned a black belt (Taekwon Do). I gave them absolutely no breaks, and they had to do everything the more neurotypical kids had to do.

I've taken more from those students I mentioned than I can ever possibly give them in return, believe me. They've inspired me (and others) and shown the potential of the human spirit. They've accomplished some pretty amazing things. But it would be insulting to their parents (in the case of the children), and to them if I were to suggest they would be as good as Remy, or me, if they just tried hard enough and were patient enough to learn from a particular approach that I use.

There are challenges enough there without them looking down a road that they'll likely never walk. The martial arts path they have is an arduous one as it is, but with its own rewards and triumphs.



Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
...but I'd lay my money on it, if I had any.

What I'm saying is that to use the absolute term "anyone" in suggesting this ascension in skill is misleading. Some of us simply won't be able to do that. I'm asking for a "reality check" here.
Regards,
Steve Scott

Steve,

I get where you're coming from loud and clear. This is the definition I am using - Encarta Dictionary, "anyone" core meaning: an indefinite pronoun used to mean one or more people, when exactly which person or people is not known or not important (examples) Can I get anyone more coffee? Did anyone show up? There isn't anyone home. I am not using this one - any or every particular person who could be named or thought of.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[hardheadjarhead]

1. My intention is to break it down in such a manner so that anyone can reach his skill. Understanding is the key to doing just that.

I still believe that someone can reach his skill level, though. He was awesome but still human as we all are.

This is the definition I am using - Encarta Dictionary, "anyone" core meaning: an indefinite pronoun used to mean one or more people, when exactly which person or people is not known or not important (examples) Can I get anyone more coffee? Did anyone show up? There isn't anyone home. I am not using this one - any or every particular person who could be named or thought of.

You didn't clearly use the indefinite pronoun in the first sentence. As phrased, it doesn't imply the interrogative or negative examples of the indefinite pronoun as listed in the Encarta. I don't think I could have taken that as anything but the global meaning of the word.

You initially made it sound (sentence above) as if you were going to be able to take everybody, anybody, anyone, everyone, every swingin' Richard, man, woman or child that walked through the door up to RP's level. This raised my eyebrows somewhat.

You later switched to the pronoun "someone"...which sounds more like what you wanted to use in the first place, given what you're now writing.

So now let us bury the horse. :deadhorse

Getting beyond lexicography, I think many of us are in agreement that:

1. Somebody, someday, may attain RP's level of skill or a comparable level...if not that blend of skills unique to RP.

2. One of us or one of our martial descendants will figure out a way to coach that person to that level of skill.

3. That person will have special attributes and personality traits that will, when combined with the principles we give him/her, will allow them to ascend to that level of skill.

4. Anyone (indefinite pronoun or not), even those of diminished abilities as I listed, can derive inspiration from RP and those who acquire any significant measure of excellence.

If anyone (indefinite pronoun) wants to keep the thread going...why don't we share ideas about HOW to get that "someone" to that level. We could make the thread one on coaching...or open another thread on that topic.

And now, (I can't resist) I will quote Ben Stein from "Ferris Beuller's Day Off" and solicit responses from all of you using the indefinite pronoun:

"Anyone? Anyone?"


Steve

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Steve! :asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
A. You initially made it sound (sentence above) as if you were going to be able to take everybody, anybody, anyone, everyone, every swingin' Richard, man, woman or child that walked through the door up to RP's level. This raised my eyebrows somewhat.

B. You later switched to the pronoun "someone"...which sounds more like what you wanted to use in the first place, given what you're now writing.

Steve

A. That's how you took it and I can understand the eyebrows raised. I hope you didn't get a permanent wrinkle from it.
B. Only because if you took it that way, there are probably others who won't write in and stay silent.
In total agreement with points 1-4. All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[hardheadjarhead]

A. That's how you took it and I can understand the eyebrows raised. I hope you didn't get a permanent wrinkle from it.

At my age, all wrinkles are permanent. I have so little hair, though, whatever furrows crease my brow are oft lost on the vast plain of my head.

I should really consider renting it out for advertising space.


SCS

 

[Dan Anderson]

Damn, Scott. We have more in common than I thought!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Damn, Scott. We have more in common than I thought!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan,

Is Scott's B-day, right around the corner also?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Yes, Dan. We both are bald, middle aged, baby boomers. We both had long curly hair in our youth. We both wore those hideous clothes in the seventies and listened to that awful music. We can remember where we were the day Kennedy got shot.

Just got a contract agreement with Hoosier Outdoor Advertising. They're going to rent my head as a billboard.

Steve

 

[Dan Anderson]

Yes, everything but the hideous clothes and awful music. I was incredibly fashion challenged and was/am a prog-rocker and jazzbo. And yes, I do remember when both Kennedys were shot. Boy, did you trigger a couple of memories there.

Yours,
"Old Friend" Dan

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I couldn't FIND any good clothes back then.

I remember both Kennedys...Martin Luther King, too.

I also remember listening to The Captain and Tenille's "Muskrat Love" on Top 40 radio, HATING it, and then finding the tune stuck in my brain. It was awful. I still get nauseous thinking about it.


Steve