Bryan Mossey - Knife Grappling

[frank raud]

Performance Edge Training: Full Contact Gunfighting Performance Edge Martial Arts Empty Hand vs Weapons Workshop

First link is for an upcoming gun grappling class. Second is for an unarmed vs weapon seminar that has passed. Aaron does these on a semi regular basis.

 

[Charlemagne]

Ah! I was unclear - The 1st part of my reply was referring to the video in the OP, where the knifer is just sitting in the guard. In your videos there's alot of struggling and fighting, which makes alot more sense

Fair question. The video I posted was an instructional on a particular situation, and not to be taken as a "live" example. However, I can think of one obvious scenario where you could end up in guard with the guy on the bottom having a blade, and that is if there was an altercation and the blade was deployed after it had gone to the ground. Another one would be if the knife was deployed previously, and someone slipped and fell. We could obviously go on and on, but I think it is safe to say that there are a number of plausible ways that someone could end up in that circumstance without really intending to.

Cheers!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Tony, do you know Aaron Little at Performance Edge?

Haven't met him, although he's close by. I looked at the website and don't see a bio for him. Do you have any information on his background?

 

[frank raud]

Haven't met him, although he's close by. I looked at the website and don't see a bio for him. Do you have any information on his background?

I don't have any info on his background. Did do some training with him in Ohio a few years ago at an event with Southnarc, Cecil Burch and Paul Sharp. Was just basic grappling(no weapons).

 

[drop bear]

I think it is fair to say that the majority of FMA guys/gals don't really have a legit grappling background in an art that pressure tests their stuff the way BJJ does, and that most BJJ guys don't have a weapons background beyond the little that is shown in the Gracie Self-Defense curriculum. There are exceptions to that of course, but I have found it to be true more often than not. Thankfully, these two camps are starting to cross over more often, and I hope that this continues.

Dog brothers?

 

[drop bear]

This was us two years ago, mostly dying. Unfortunately that hasn't improved that much as everyone has gotten better.

That is my experience with knife grappling. It is the art of getting shanked.

I am still considering just trading punches with the guy. So at least i may get the small percentage of a ko. Or a knock down.

 

[Blindside]

Dog brothers?

I am not trying to be pendatic here, but to make a distinction the "Dog Brothers" usually refers to the group of people who show up at Gatherings and fight, those of us who do so who then get invited into the "Tribe." There is no fixed standard or curriculum for this group, aside from having a certain amount of experience you get people from a wide variety of backgrounds, so you can't really say that a "Dog Brother" has any sort of counter knife experience.

Now Dog Brothers Martial Arts is a curriculum put together by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny to produce a well rounded fighter. That curriculum while heavily based in FMA has lots of other influences, Krabi Krabong, BJJ, etc etc. It has elements of the dueling that DB got its rep from but also more real world type stuff like unarmed vs knife. He absolutely has a curriculum of knife defense, his knife offense isn't public and he really hasn't publicly shown too much that I have seen about dealing with the knife in a ground grapple. I have no doubt he has an approach, but he is leery about putting his knife material out for public consumption.

 

[Blindside]

That is my experience with knife grappling. It is the art of getting shanked.

I am still considering just trading punches with the guy. So at least i may get the small percentage of a ko. Or a knock down.

It isn't a range that I want to be in either. KOing the other guy standing is my preferred strategy too, but hard to do against any guy with any sort of skill. They can trade, you can't.

 

[drop bear]

I am not trying to be pendatic here, but to make a distinction the "Dog Brothers" usually refers to the group of people who show up at Gatherings and fight, those of us who do so who then get invited into the "Tribe." There is no fixed standard or curriculum for this group, aside from having a certain amount of experience you get people from a wide variety of backgrounds, so you can't really say that a "Dog Brother" has any sort of counter knife experience.

Now Dog Brothers Martial Arts is a curriculum put together by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny to produce a well rounded fighter. That curriculum while heavily based in FMA has lots of other influences, Krabi Krabong, BJJ, etc etc. It has elements of the dueling that DB got its rep from but also more real world type stuff like unarmed vs knife. He absolutely has a curriculum of knife defense, his knife offense isn't public and he really hasn't publicly shown too much that I have seen about dealing with the knife in a ground grapple. I have no doubt he has an approach, but he is leery about putting his knife material out for public consumption.

Yeah. Ok. But whoever is turning up to these DB events seem to be doing weapons work. And grappling.

From what it looks like to me anyway.

 

[drop bear]

It isn't a range that I want to be in either. KOing the other guy standing is my preferred strategy too, but hard to do against any guy with any sort of skill. They can trade, you can't.

The issue is there are a lot of internal conflicts within the mechanics.

Yeah. Trading is technically low percentage. And considered a hail mary defence.

Now generally you would suggest that in a high risk situation logically you play a conservative response.

So simple basics. Secure the weapon and no flash risks.

Exept. By demonstation. Trying to secure that arm gets you carved up. For no advance in position. You get caught in this 50/50 position try fail go back to 50/50. And with a knife it is a 90/10.

Now there are some conflicts there. Because of course if you are getting stabbed you can't just stop. But you also have to accept a couple of shots is putting you in real trouble.

At what point does grabbing that arm seem like a bad idea?

The debate is looked at very dogmatically at this point. A is better than B even if A dosent work.

And it is brutal to consider you may have to scrap an entire mind set.

 

[Blindside]

Yeah. Ok. But whoever is turning up to these DB events seem to be doing stick work. And grappling.

From what it looks like to me anyway.

Like I said it really depends on the guys background, lots of grappling because grappling happens, particularly if you lose your stick, your best choice is to crash and grapple. Most guys there have a decent amount of experience weapon fighting and usually far less experience grappling. So you tend to get lots of bad grappling, but sort of like this thread demonstrates, weapons changes grappling in funny ways so that also has an influence.

 

[drop bear]

Like I said it really depends on the guys background, lots of grappling because grappling happens, particularly if you lose your stick, your best choice is to crash and grapple. Most guys there have a decent amount of experience weapon fighting and usually far less experience grappling. So you tend to get lots of bad grappling, but sort of like this thread demonstrates, weapons changes grappling in funny ways so that also has an influence.

Form follows function.

 

[Blindside]

The issue is there are a lot of internal conflicts within the mechanics.

Yeah. Trading is technically low percentage. And considered a hail mary defence.

Now generally you would suggest that in a high risk situation logically you play a conservative response.

So simple basics. Secure the weapon and no flash risks.

Exept. By demonstation. Trying to secure that arm gets you carved up. For no advance in position. You get caught in this 50/50 position try fail go back to 50/50. And with a knife it is a 90/10.

Now there are some conflicts there. Because of course if you are getting stabbed you can't just stop. But you also have to accept a couple of shots is putting you in real trouble.

At what point does grabbing that arm seem like a bad idea?

The debate is looked at very dogmatically at this point. A is better than B even if A dosent work.

And it is brutal to consider you may have to scrap an entire mind set.

There is no easy answer. I have heard some instructors essentially say that there is no unarmed defense against a skilled knifer. Probably an overstatement, but my winning percentage is low. But clearly people win and by doing this training hopefully when we run against unskilled people our winning percentage is higher.

 

[Charlemagne]

Dog brothers?

They do a good deal of stick grappling on the ground, and probably other stuff as well, but I have not been exposed to that as much.

 

[Blindside]

They do a good deal of stick grappling on the ground, and probably other stuff as well, but I have not been exposed to that as much.

In the US Gatherings it is pretty common that once it hits the ground people start going for hideaway knives. The European DB Gatherings have intentionally steered away from this and the knife grappling is not part of the culture. I don't know what the Canadian Gatherings are like.

 

[frank raud]

In the US Gatherings it is pretty common that once it hits the ground people start going for hideaway knives. The European DB Gatherings have intentionally steered away from this and the knife grappling is not part of the culture. I don't know what the Canadian Gatherings are like.

There is a Gathering of the Pack in Montreal this weekend. I will ask my buddies that are going.

 

[frank raud]

So I texted a buddy going to the Gathering, he said in previous Gatherings he has not seem hidden knives being pulled out for grappling purposes. Will let me know what happens this time round.

 

[Charlemagne]

Another nice video on the topic.