being creative with poomsae

[sadantkd]

I was away from competitive taekwondo for nearly 20 years, and when I watch poomsae competitions or see the official kukkiwon videos, I am kind of dissapointed. I think the way we used to do them looked much better, and made more sense. Basically, I'm talking about speed changes, but there are some other things.

For example, in Koryo, where you punch your own hand, and then do a cross over side kick, we used to do it as if you're stepping into the punch, and then pushing the defeated opponent out of the way as you move on to kick the next attacker. It just seems more real this way to me.

I'm not saying I know better than the Grand Masters at Kukkiwon, but I'm just expressing my thoughts, for what it's worth.

What does anybody else think?

 

[Cyriacus]

From what Ive seen of KKW TKD Poomsae, it has changed over time. For the better? I think not. But, that being said, to each their own. And obviously someone thinks its better.

 

[puunui]

What does anybody else think?

I think we should do them how they were meant to be performed.

 

[MSUTKD]

The kukkiwon DVDs are for showing the accuracy of the moves not the presentation. Actually, individuals have a bit of room here to express themselves. Here is a video of someone practicing timing, speed and power.

 

[mastercole]

I was away from competitive taekwondo for nearly 20 years, and when I watch poomsae competitions or see the official kukkiwon videos, I am kind of dissapointed. I think the way we used to do them looked much better, and made more sense. Basically, I'm talking about speed changes, but there are some other things.

The Taegeuk and Dan Poomsae have changed so little, that it is challenging to even find those extremely minor changes. As an example, can you accurately identify the speed changes you mention, not based on your personal opinion, but on factual evidence directly sourced from the Kukkiwon? Maybe you are thinking of Poomsae competition under the sanction of the WTF, which is a different thing.

For example, in Koryo, where you punch your own hand, and then do a cross over side kick, we used to do it as if you're stepping into the punch, and then pushing the defeated opponent out of the way as you move on to kick the next attacker. It just seems more real this way to me.

Kukkiwon never changed that hand-punch cross step side kick sequence, it has always been the same and we can see that by comparing the 1972 KTA Taekwondo Textbook, with the 1975 English translation, with the 1995 textbook, with the 2006 textbook and the current Kukkiwon website, Kukkiwon media education center and DVD set.

I'm not saying I know better than the Grand Masters at Kukkiwon, but I'm just expressing my thoughts, for what it's worth.
What does anybody else think?

I think that many people learned what their instructor taught them, as I did. Then when they encountered the official source, the Kukkiwon, it causes some confusion as some of what we were taught by our teachers was different. Personally for me, I like follow the information that comes from closer to the source.

 

[mastercole]

From what Ive seen of KKW TKD Poomsae, it has changed over time. For the better? I think not. But, that being said, to each their own. And obviously someone thinks its better.

In what way to you think the Kukkiwon Poomsae has changed, exactly?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

In what way to you think the Kukkiwon Poomsae has changed, exactly?

Well there seems to be big differences from palgwes to taegeks, but I dont know if thats what you mean. I dont know the taegeks but was at a school fete recently and the local tkd school did a demo. It seemed to me the short stance (if thats what its called) was heaps more prominent in the taegeks than the palgwes. Off the top of my head, only palgwe 8 has a short stance. Our GM changed a part of koryo, but that is specific to our school, so doesnt count.

 

[mastercole]

Well there seems to be big differences from palgwes to taegeks, but I dont know if thats what you mean.

I'm not referring to the different set of Poomsae (Palgwe/Taegeuk), I'm curious if people think the Kukkiwon is changing the technical standard of any Poomsae over time, and if think so, exactly what do they think has been changed, and do they have proof.

I dont know the taegeks but was at a school fete recently and the local tkd school did a demo. It seemed to me the short stance (if thats what its called) was heaps more prominent in the taegeks than the palgwes. Off the top of my head, only palgwe 8 has a short stance. Our GM changed a part of koryo, but that is specific to our school, so doesnt count.

To be technically correct every single Poomsae contains Nahrani-seogi, a short stance. Mostly found at the beginning and end of the Poomsae.

Otherwise, the stance, and other technique found in both Taegeuk and Palqwe are identical in every way. Meaning, front stance (ap-kubi), back stance (dwi-kubi), sitting stance (juchoom-seogi), etc, found in Palgwe Poomsae, are identical to the same stance found in Taegeuk Poomsae.

Short stance exceptions:

1. Taegeuk Poomsae has Ap-seogi aka walking stance (the older Okinawan style) which is used often in Taegeuk 1, 2 & 3, where as Ap-seogi never appears in the Palgwe Poomsae, though a variant short stance wen/oreun-seogi does appear in Palgwe Poomsae.

2. Palgwe sa-jang (#4) contains the first short stance to appear in the Palgwe Poomsae.

3. Palgwe Poomsae contains the most narrow of all stances found in either Taegeuk or Palgwe Poomsae, Hakdari-seogi. Note: Hakdari-seogi does not appear in Taegeuk Poomsae.

 

[puunui]

Kukkiwon never changed that hand-punch cross step side kick sequence, it has always been the same and we can see that by comparing the 1972 KTA Taekwondo Textbook, with the 1975 English translation, with the 1995 textbook, with the 2006 textbook and the current Kukkiwon website, Kukkiwon media education center and DVD set.

There was also a korean language update published in the late 80s, which I think became the 1995 english textbook. I think.

I think that many people learned what their instructor taught them, as I did. Then when they encountered the official source, the Kukkiwon, it causes some confusion as some of what we were taught by our teachers was different. Personally for me, I like follow the information that comes from closer to the source.

My general rule is if there is a conflict between the way I learned and the way the kukkiwon is teaching it, I go with the kukkiwon way. I do make note of the changes though, and the principle behind it. For example, after the opening double middle block into the open hand palm strike, the kukkiwon way is to pull the hand back from the block and then strike, with that wind up. But my instructor says not to pull the hand back, because poom/dan holders should be able to strike whereever their hand happens to be, and that the wind up is unnecessary and too slow, for a poom/dan holder. But when i show or teach it, I do the wind up, like how the kukkiwon wants.

 

[mastercole]

My general rule is if there is a conflict between the way I learned and the way the kukkiwon is teaching it, I go with the kukkiwon way. I do make note of the changes though, and the principle behind it. For example, after the opening double middle block into the open hand palm strike, the kukkiwon way is to pull the hand back from the block and then strike, with that wind up. But my instructor says not to pull the hand back, because poom/dan holders should be able to strike whereever their hand happens to be, and that the wind up is unnecessary and too slow, for a poom/dan holder. But when i show or teach it, I do the wind up, like how the kukkiwon wants.

How weird that you brought up this specific point, I was just discussing this. When I was taught Keumgang by my teacher, we drew the hand back for the first palm strike. Then I attended the instructors course at Kukkiwon, and GM LEE Kyu Hyun told us no, strike from the block position. Later, I attend additional training with GM LEE Chong Kwan, and he says to draw the hand back before the palm strike, like it currently shows in the Kukkiwon materials. I know these are very small differences, and I make no issue of them, it's just just interesting that I was just discussing this with a high dan student.

 

[puunui]

How weird that you brought up this specific point, I was just discussing this. When I was taught Keumgang by my teacher, we drew the hand back for the first palm strike. Then I attended the instructors course at Kukkiwon, and GM LEE Kyu Hyun told us no, strike from the block position. Later, I attend additional training with GM LEE Chong Kwan, and he says to draw the hand back before the palm strike, like it currently shows in the Kukkiwon materials. I know these are very small differences, and I make no issue of them, it's just just interesting that I was just discussing this with a high dan student.

That sort of thing happens to me all the time. I will think about someone, and suddenly I bump into them or they call. Or I think about something, trying to figure out an answer, and the answer appears in some form or fashion. I tend to think of GM LEE Chong Kwan, who is the greatest, as Mr. Keumgang. There was an early film where he was demonstrating keumgang, and so I associate that form with him. He demonstrated that form for us at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, and everyone's mouth was open and while we all just stared admiringly. So I try to do it his way, although I do prefer the unchamber chin strike better, for the explanation on the difference between guep and poom/dan.

 

[mastercole]

That sort of thing happens to me all the time. I will think about someone, and suddenly I bump into them or they call. Or I think about something, trying to figure out an answer, and the answer appears in some form or fashion. I tend to think of GM LEE Chong Kwan, who is the greatest, as Mr. Keumgang. There was an early film where he was demonstrating keumgang, and so I associate that form with him. He demonstrated that form for us at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, and everyone's mouth was open and while we all just stared admiringly. So I try to do it his way, although I do prefer the unchamber chin strike better, for the explanation on the difference between guep and poom/dan.

He is amazing. I remember back in 2008 I think, in Los Angeles I brought some instructors from Ohio to attend the Kukkiwon Hanmadang Referee seminar. I walked into the hotel lobby off Wilshire Blvd and there was GM LEE Chong Kwon sitting at a table drinking tea, he looks up and says hello. I thought, "yeah, this is going to be very cool" That event was packed, it had a huge turn out. We were doing Poomsae in that big room and we had to be careful not to kick each other.

 

[puunui]

I remember back in 2008 I think, in Los Angeles I brought some instructors from Ohio to attend the Kukkiwon Hanmadang Referee seminar. I walked into the hotel lobby off Wilshire Blvd and there was GM LEE Chong Kwon sitting at a table drinking tea, he looks up and says hello. I thought, "yeah, this is going to be very cool" That event was packed, it had a huge turn out. We were doing Poomsae in that big room and we had to be careful not to kick each other.

I was there for that Hanmadang IR seminar as well. Won the citation for that seminar, which surprised me.

 

[mastercole]

I was there for that Hanmadang IR seminar as well. Won the citation for that seminar, which surprised me.

Out of several hundred people at that I think that is the rarest citation to get, the one from the Kukkiwon Jidoja Yunsuwon.

Not sure if you saw it or not, but GM LEE Chong Kwon was giving me his version of how to use the talyunbong (makiwara). I don't know who it was but some guy with what looked like an eagle on his dobok was watching us. I don't think GM Lee speaks English, so we were both speaking completely in Korean using Taekwondo technical terms. After the lesson, that guy came up to me and said "that was really weird, what were you and him talking about." Then I thought, yeah, it must have really looked strange, especially since most practitioners these days do not use a talyunbong.

 

[puunui]

Out of several hundred people at that I think that is the rarest citation to get, the one from the Kukkiwon Jidoja Yunsuwon.

I was super surprised on that one. Totally wasn't expecting that.

Not sure if you saw it or not, but GM LEE Chong Kwon was giving me his version of how to use the talyunbong (makiwara). I don't know who it was but some guy with what looked like an eagle on his dobok was watching us. I don't think GM Lee speaks English, so we were both speaking completely in Korean using Taekwondo technical terms. After the lesson, that guy came up to me and said "that was really weird, what were you and him talking about." Then I thought, yeah, it must have really looked strange, especially since most practitioners these days do not use a talyunbong.

Missed that, but sounds interesting. Leadership at the Kukkiwon comes and goes, but GM Lee remains there, the anchor of the Academy side. When I go to these seminars now, I try to mind my own business and keep focused on what I am supposed to be learning. I did see one participant who was in front of me sitting there with a bad attitude. He looked like he didn't want to be there, when he did do stuff it was that long wide stance, and he actually left I think in the afternoon of the first day. He showed up for the test, but I hear that guy flunked and was telling people it was because of his race or some other made up reason. Which is obviously not true -- he flunked because he didn't show up for class, didn't study the handout materials at night and had a bad attitude. It had nothing to do with anything other than those factors. He might have gotten his graduation certificate though. Not sure on that one.

 

[mastercole]

I was super surprised on that one. Totally wasn't expecting that.




Missed that, but sounds interesting. Leadership at the Kukkiwon comes and goes, but GM Lee remains there, the anchor of the Academy side. When I go to these seminars now, I try to mind my own business and keep focused on what I am supposed to be learning. I did see one participant who was in front of me sitting there with a bad attitude. He looked like he didn't want to be there, when he did do stuff it was that long wide stance, and he actually left I think in the afternoon of the first day. He showed up for the test, but I hear that guy flunked and was telling people it was because of his race or some other made up reason. Which is obviously not true -- he flunked because he didn't show up for class, didn't study the handout materials at night and had a bad attitude. It had nothing to do with anything other than those factors. He might have gotten his graduation certificate though. Not sure on that one.

I heard of few those too, but like you have said, those types are few and far between, a dying breed

One thing I notice about the Academy is how every time I asked one of those main instructors, like GM LEE Chong Kwon, or the dean, what is their kwan roots, it's almost always Chang Moo Kwan. It might be a coincidence, but it is certainly interesting.

 

[puunui]

I heard of few those too, but like you have said, those types are few and far between, a dying breed

Strange thing was that he had students or members of his dojang in attendance and they did well and passed, and now compete regularly at US Open Hanmadang and other events. So there is hope, through the next generation. The up and coming generation does share the same bitter, race based feelings that their teachers sometimes have.

One thing I notice about the Academy is how every time I asked one of those main instructors, like GM LEE Chong Kwon, or the dean, what is their kwan roots, it's almost always Chang Moo Kwan. It might be a coincidence, but it is certainly interesting.

I think how they roughly divided up taekwondo responsibilities with respect to the kwans were that GM LEE Chong Woo (Jidokwan) would take care of primarily WTF affairs, GM UHM Woon Kyu (Chung Do Kwan) would take care of the Kukkiwon, and GM LEE Nam Suk/GM KIM Soon Bae (Chang Moo Kwan) would take care of the Academy side. That's, for example, why GM PARK Hae Man (Chung Do Kwan) served as the main editor for the kukkiwon taeguek poomsae, and why GM UHM Woon Kyu became Kukkiwon president after Dr. Kim. This corresponds with the three highest Kukkiwon yudanja poomsae, Chonkwon (Chang Moo Kwan), Hansoo (Chung Do Kwan) and Ilyeo (Jidokwan).

Now in Korea, the kwan system has been replaced by what college you graduated from, Yong In, Chae Dae, Kyung Hee, etc. Right now Kyung Hee University holds the power, because WTF President Choue, WTF Secretary General Yang and Kukkiwon President Kang are all Kyung Hee alumni. In fact, Kyung Hee University was founded by President Choue's father. Kyung Hee University is the Choue family business, with alumni all over the world. But the balance of power is shifting, and we may swing back to a kwan power base again soon.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm not referring to the different set of Poomsae (Palgwe/Taegeuk), I'm curious if people think the Kukkiwon is changing the technical standard of any Poomsae over time, and if think so, exactly what do they think has been changed, and do they have proof.



To be technically correct every single Poomsae contains Nahrani-seogi, a short stance. Mostly found at the beginning and end of the Poomsae.

Otherwise, the stance, and other technique found in both Taegeuk and Palqwe are identical in every way. Meaning, front stance (ap-kubi), back stance (dwi-kubi), sitting stance (juchoom-seogi), etc, found in Palgwe Poomsae, are identical to the same stance found in Taegeuk Poomsae.

Short stance exceptions:

1. Taegeuk Poomsae has Ap-seogi aka walking stance (the older Okinawan style) which is used often in Taegeuk 1, 2 & 3, where as Ap-seogi never appears in the Palgwe Poomsae, though a variant short stance wen/oreun-seogi does appear in Palgwe Poomsae.

2. Palgwe sa-jang (#4) contains the first short stance to appear in the Palgwe Poomsae.

3. Palgwe Poomsae contains the most narrow of all stances found in either Taegeuk or Palgwe Poomsae, Hakdari-seogi. Note: Hakdari-seogi does not appear in Taegeuk Poomsae.

Im curious mastercole, when you say there is a short stance in palgwe 4, are you referring to the first move? If so, I have been taught that as a back stance. Im not doubting you are correct, Im just curious because my club teaches that as a back stance and a friend of mine who knows the palgwes (from a different club), also does it as a back stance. I know my GM changes things here and there so I wouldnt be surprised if technically it is a short stance, but its just odd that someone else I know from a different club was taught it the same way also. I know palgwe 8 has a short stance in the first couple of moves, but off the top of my head I cant think of it being in any of the other palgwes (not as Im taught anyway). Am I right in saying there are a lot more short stances in the taegeks?

 

[mastercole]

Im curious mastercole, when you say there is a short stance in palgwe 4, are you referring to the first move? If so, I have been taught that as a back stance. Im not doubting you are correct, Im just curious because my club teaches that as a back stance and a friend of mine who knows the palgwes (from a different club), also does it as a back stance. I know my GM changes things here and there so I wouldnt be surprised if technically it is a short stance, but its just odd that someone else I know from a different club was taught it the same way also. I know palgwe 8 has a short stance in the first couple of moves, but off the top of my head I cant think of it being in any of the other palgwes (not as Im taught anyway). Am I right in saying there are a lot more short stances in the taegeks?

Officially Plagwe sa-jang (#4) has a total of 6 short stances, all are Nahrani-seogi. One at the beginning and one at the end for joonbi-seogi. Then one each found at the 3rd, 6th, 13th and 16th Poom. These four Nahrani-seogi are performed in concert with Eopeun Sonnal Bakkat-chigi, or knife hand strike that occurs after each pull-jaw-hitting technique. It's been that way since they were first created and written down in 1967.

Palgwe oh-jang (#5) contains the shortest stance found in any geup Poomsae.

The rest of the Palgwe Poomsae also have short stances. You might need an official source to find them though considering that you have stated your instructor makes changes to the Poomsae.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Officially Plagwe sa-jang (#4) has a total of 6 short stances, all are Nahrani-seogi. One at the beginning and one at the end for joonbi-seogi. Then one each found at the 3rd, 6th, 13th and 16th Poom. These four Nahrani-seogi are performed in concert with Eopeun Sonnal Bakkat-chigi, or knife hand strike that occurs after each pull-jaw-hitting technique. It's been that way since they were first created and written down in 1967.

Palgwe oh-jang (#5) contains the shortest stance found in any geup Poomsae.

The rest of the Palgwe Poomsae also have short stances. You might need an official source to find them though considering that you have stated your instructor makes changes to the Poomsae.

My apologies, you are correct about palgwe 4, I know the one you are talking about now, after each jaw hitting technique. Im not sure where the others are though. Where is the one in palgwe 5? Ive just been bouncing aroung the lounge room doing palgwe 5 trying to find where it would be. I know our club has a couple of things in the palgwes that we do differently according to my instructor. Our GM has pretty much retired these days and since Ive been training I have only seen him a handful of times (other than at black belt gradings), but I believe his instructor played some part in the development of the palgwes "back in the day". My instructor once told me the name of my GM's instructor, but I cant remember it for the life of me. I remember it was an odd sounding name.