Banke Shinobinoden -- split from Bujinkan fraud

[Bruno@MT]

I have split these posts from the 'Bujinkan scam' thread, since the subject went on a tangent about Banke Shinobinoden, which is a much more interesting topic.
Since the new discussion started on page 4 and was kinda lost among the other posts, I thought it would be good to give it its own thread.
To give some background, the discussion mentioned Juan Hombre, who someone said represented Banke.

From what I read about Juan Hombre, he is not considered a representative of Banke shinobinoden. He himself seems to think so yet when that topic came up, Kamawami sensei apparently said that they have no representatives outside Japan. Which is really the polite Japanese way of saying 'hell no'.

 

[Chris Parker]

Both have actually been said. Kawakami has gone back and forth a bit from saying that he has never shown any Westerners anything "real" from his traditions, to saying that yes, Hombre and some of his students have travelled to Japan to train with him semi-frequently over about 10 years, but there are no representatives outside of Japan, to there being a Spanish group linked with Hombre that are teaching Kaawakami's methods.... gets a little confusing, really!

 

[Akatombo]

This guy, Mr.Juan Hombre, started training Bujinkan a long, long time ago. (they say he wanted to be representant in Spain, but you know that is not the way Bujinkan works). Then, he went to Genbukan and published very rude things against Bujinkan. After some time, same story, Tanemura Sensei did not want to noun him as his representant, and he left. He published it was a matter of money. Then, he met Yunoki sensei, who opened the doors of his house to him. I don´t know what happened, but after some time he broke his relation with Yunoki san, too. All this is fact.

More or less ten years ago he found Kiyomoto sensei (don´t know details). He and his students were accepted to visit the school, and even an orientation seminar was done for them. I think (this is just my opinion) the Japanese sensei thought he was really interested in learning from them. He started going with students every year, but the Japanese sensei were amazed when they found out he was lying in Europe, telling that he was (again) a sensei of the school, issuing menkyo and using the name of the school to attack Bujinkan and Genbukan, putting false rude words in the mouth of Kawakami Sensei... Besides, he did not change at all his previous way of training, what you can see in the videos. It is 100% obvious for anybody who has studied Japanese martial arts that his style is not traditional at all. But if he did not want to learn...why he was travelling to Japan? (I have my opinion, but it isn´t good, so I will remain silent).

Only two of Mr. Hombre´s co-travelers got the blessing of Kawakami sensei after some years. They were told to travel to Japan alone, not with Mr.Hombre, for receiving full transmission and systematic training. At the same time, Kiyomoto sensei published that the school had not branches overseas as a polite way to stop Mr.Hombre.

And five years later, this two Spanish students, and other two who joined the school got Mokuroku in some ryuha of this tradition, and license to open a dojo in Europe, as you can see in Kiyomoto sensei´s web. Mr.Hombre is not training with this school anymore, but the sensei refuse to publish anything against his reputation. That is difficult for westerners to be understood, but is common in Japan. Katori ryu had a similar problem some years ago and they remained silent, too.

Other day we can talk about different points of view between Bujinkan and Banke no Den. But today, I just feel it´s important to say that Kawakami sensei never spoke against Hatsumi sensei or Bujinkan.

I hope you enjoyed the story. I´ve tried to be as much objective as possible.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Thanks for posting. If I may ask: are you a student in Banke Shinobinoden?

 

[Akatombo]

Yes, I am. But I´d like you all to consider that my words are only mine, and that I don´t represent this school. Anyway, what I wrote is known for everybody in Spain.

We are four accepted students, all from Spain. I think there are more out of Japan, but I am not 100% sure about what kind of relationship they have with the school, so I´ll not noun them. We have not taken Keppan yet, but we have first mokuroku.

About Mr.Hombre, his own student and friend, Mr. Ignacio Serapio (nickname: kakutobugei) wrote in a spanish forum that he was in the meeting of Otsuka when Kawakami sensei told him (Mr.Hombre) that he could not be his representant because he trains his own style.

Going now to my school, it´s truth that the point of view is quite different from Bujinkan, but I don´t think it must be a problem. Banke no Den considers ninjutsu to be a military intelligence art, not bujutsu at all. But we study bujutsu, too: Shinden Fudo Ryu Yawara (nothing to do with Bujinkan´s Shinden fudo Ryu), Ichi jyo Ho koppojutsu, Toda Ryu Jutte, Shizuka Ryu Kusarigama, Izumoshin Ryu kenjutsu...

Banke Shinobi no Den means "shinobi transmission of the Ban family". Its a modern name (like "Bujinkan") to join inside different traditions about bujutsu and shinobi, whose common point is that they arrive to our days through the transmission of this Shiga ken family, even when they did not founded most of them; the same way some people sometimes say "Takamatsu den" to refer to Bujinkan.

About Bujinkan I only can say that I was very happy there for (more or less) fifteen years, and that I keep very good friends there. I remember how sad and hard was for me to talk to my Shihan when I decided to change my way. Fortunately he is a real Shihan, and our friendship goes on nowadays.

I think Bujinkan people should not worry about fraud. History of japanese martial arts is full of stories we will never know if are truth or not. We all (even people in Koryu) need a little of faith.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Cool. Of course I understand you don't officially represent your school, just like I am not a spokesperson for Genbukan. The distinction between ninjutsu and bujutsu makes sense I think.

What I've been wondering for a while now: is there documentation about the banke ninjutsu and bujutsu lineages? Like scrolls, or references in other places?

And if I understand correctly, part of the Koga ninjutsu is about body conditioning and endurance. Are there still people prepared to engage in that type of training which is arguably detritemental to the body? I read things like learning to dislocate your shoulders, toughening the weak parts of the body for surviving impact (like a bo against the throat), knuckle and hand conditioning like the clip below... This is similar to what I read about Fujita Seiko's training btw.

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It seems to me that in todays world, it would be illegal to subject kids to training like that. Does this mean that those parts of the banke lineage will die out?
I hope you don't mind I'm asking these questions.

 

[Akatombo]

I´m really impressed by your questions. I think you touch the exact point.

About documents: Kawakami sensei has a lot of makimono, yes. But that is not so important, and is not a valid proof of anything. His position in this school, and in other organizations in Shiga ken, allows him to have many of them even without being direct heir. Hatsumi was right when he said that documents without training are nothing.

About physical conditioning: After IIWW, Kawakami was sent by his father to study with Ishida sensei. (Perhaps it was a way to have one mouth less to feed in the terrible post war in Japan). He was trained in a way which is 100% ilegal nowadays. He developed extraordinary skills, but he paid a high price with his own chilhood. Some of those skills are not healthy at all, but in the real shinobi tradition the health of the shinobi is nothing if compared with his efectiveness for his master´s goal. It´s terrible, but it´s the old way.

(Of course, his story could be false. But the fact is that he has the skills.)

To answer your comment, you are right: An important part of the tradition will be lost after Kawakami sensei. Now you can imagine our feeling when we were accepted as students.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I´m really impressed by your questions. I think you touch the exact point.

About documents: Kawakami sensei has a lot of makimono, yes. But that is not so important, and is not a valid proof of anything. His position in this school, and in other organizations in Shiga ken, allows him to have many of them even without being direct heir. Hatsumi was right when he said that documents without training are nothing.

Thank you. It is correct that documents without training are worthless. I am told that old makimono can be bought in antique shops, so anyone can get them. I was just curious if there was a specific ban scroll.

About physical conditioning: After IIWW, Kawakami was sent by his father to study with Ishida sensei. (Perhaps it was a way to have one mouth less to feed in the terrible post war in Japan). He was trained in a way which is 100% ilegal nowadays. He developed extraordinary skills, but he paid a high price with his own chilhood. Some of those skills are not healthy at all, but in the real shinobi tradition the health of the shinobi is nothing if compared with his efectiveness for his master´s goal. It´s terrible, but it´s the old way.

Very interesting. I had not heard this before. In the olden days when ninjutsu still served a point, there were not only risks but also large benefits. Those abilities had a large possible reward. These days, those skills -while admirable for the endurance they embody- bring no benefits anymore.

Additionally, people do not die as young anymore, due to the absence of armed conflicts. Since people with that kind of training now also reach an old age, arthritis and various other age problems will catch up with them.

(Of course, his story could be false. But the fact is that he has the skills.)

To answer your comment, you are right: An important part of the tradition will be lost after Kawakami sensei. Now you can imagine our feeling when we were accepted as students.

On a historical level, it is indeed not possible to judge whether his training was a lie or not. But as you say, his skills are clearly visible. For example, the knuckle conditioning, and the ability to dislocate your shoulders at will have to be trained from a young age. And those skills cannot be developed without someone who knows what he is doing. So looking at it from that point of view, and with the distinction between ninjutsu and bujutsu traditions, and the various other aspects of the story that match what I know about Fujita Seiko, I think is very plausible that his story is true.

And because of that, I can indeed imagine your feeling when you were accepted as students in banke shinobinoden. He is the last living person who has first hand experience with that training and who is still testament to the extraordinary skills that will only continue as legend.

 

[Akatombo]

That is why there was a misunderstood. Kawakami sensei never said he was "the last ninja" or something like that. What he once said was that he does not know anybody else who follow this kind of training from childhood. He was not talking about martial arts at all. Other people -we know who- used that to get publicity and to attack Hatsumi sensei and Tanemura sensei at the same time. I´m very sorry for that.

 

[Akatombo]

There is one more thing which perhaps results interesting for you: in the Edo period, the government of Shiga ken had a Register with the names of legally authorized profesional shinobi, like lawyers or doctors nowadays.

In the same direction, not many people in the West know about Koka Ban Toh Ichimonkai. This organization is independent but quite near to Ban ke no den school.

There are so many mistakes in which we have been told in the west...

 

[Bruno@MT]

I read that someone recorded the seminar, demonstrations and interview with Kawakami sensei (the one where Meik Skoss was present during the interview). Are those recordings public, or perhaps available as a DVD? From what I read about the seminar, it seemed very interesting.

 

[Akatombo]

There is a record, but not for commercial purposes. I think Kawakami Soke would not authorize that. (It´s very common that japanese masters of martial arts have not a very good opinion about merchants, mainly merchants of martial arts. In example, have a look to what Musashi Miyamoto wrote about it in his famous book.). But perhaps Daniel DiMarzio can help you.

In the same direction, in Europe we created a group of study some years ago, and last summer we got the permit to open the first offcial "dojo" out of Japan (as you can see in the official webpage); but at the same time Kawakami soke wants us to keep the tradition of previous interview, one on one, before accepting new students. Just with this it´s very easy to see that the school is not going to grow up much, and that commercial profit is not the goal.

 

[Aiki Lee]

As a person who doesn't kow anything about the people in question, can someone clear up a few things for me?

Is Banke Shinobinoden, Kawakami's group? What does it mean?

Is there any footage or pictures of Kawakami's methods? Why is there controversy about him?

And while Juan's techniques a clearly not traditional you can't help but think he would make a decent movie choreographer?

 

[Chris Parker]

As a person who doesn't kow anything about the people in question, can someone clear up a few things for me?

Is Banke Shinobinoden, Kawakami's group? What does it mean?

Yes, Banke Shinobiden is the teaching group/organisation of Kawakami Jinichi Sensei. The name refers to "The Ban Family (Ban [name] Ke [family]) Shinobi/Ninja Transmission (Den). According to Kawakami (as Akatombo wrote above), the traditions taught came through the Shiga family.

Is there any footage or pictures of Kawakami's methods? Why is there controversy about him?

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There's a couple of others, but they're mainly repeats of these ones.

As to the controversy, I'm keeping out of that here for now...

And while Juan's techniques a clearly not traditional you can't help but think he would make a decent movie choreographer?

Ha, maybe! I did have some students recently ask if we get to learn "that cool weapon from Ninja Assasin".... my responce was less than encouraging....

 

[George Kohler]

But we study bujutsu, too: Shinden Fudo Ryu Yawara (nothing to do with Bujinkan´s Shinden fudo Ryu),

You would be surprised to know that the mokuroku that is listed on Banke Shinobinoden for SFr yawara is the same as the mokuroku for SFr kenpō.

Yawara
soku gaeshi
kagami dori
muna dori
muna otoshi
ect.
kenpō
washinoha gaeshi
ryufu
rangiku
sennin kuzushi
ect.

This SFr kenpō school was taught by Ueno Takashi, who was also the teacher of Hatsumi Sensei, and I wouldn't be surprised that Hatsumi Sensei also learned this school.

 

[Akatombo]

Banke Shinobi no Den, or "Shinobi tradition of the Ban Family" is a modern name for the group of old schools which arrive to us through that family of Koka (Shiga ken). That is the common point for all them. Kawakami Junichi is the soke of this tradition in this lineage. Kiyomoto Yasushi is the shihan. Some people in Spain try to present as if Kiyomoto sensei had his own school (that is 100% false) trying to separate the idea of shinobi and samurai, ninjutsu and bujutsu. But the real teaching of Kawakami soke is that a shinobi is just a samurai with some especial training from childhood in ninjutsu, besides bujutsu.

The reason (in my opinion) why this school had some bad critics in the past is that some people presented themselves as representants, (whyle they were, in fact, just visitors, not accepted students) and started to teach technics that had nothing to do with the real japanese school (this is a fact). At the same time, their goal (the fake "ninja´s") was to earn money, so they started a "marketing campaign", attacking Bujinkan, Genbukan and other well respected schools without permision or even knowledge of the japanese sensei. Fortunately, we are talking about people with so, so low level of education (don´t speak English or Japanese, i.e.) that it was easy to expose them. But even nowadays some of them go on with their fraud, mainly in South America, where it´s easier to find less informed people nowadays.

Excuse me, please, for my comments. I hope not to bring problems to this forum.

 

[Akatombo]

Dear Mr.Kohler

I think it was 2006, february. That morning I arrived to Kiyomoto sensei´s house in Sagamihara by 11.00 a.m. The door was opened, and he was sitting on the floor of his living room, talking by phone. Without finishing his conversation, he told me to sit and wait a little, and so I did. When he finished, he asked to me: "Do you know who Ueno Takashi was?" - "sure"- I said. Immediately, he started to draw the tree of students of Ueno Takashi sensei. The names he wrote, you can imagine. But there was other name which was completely new for me; it was Anegawa sensei, 92 years old (aprox.) at that time. "It was he at the phone"-told me Kiyomoto sensei before we started my instruction that morning.

When I saw the familiarity he was talking to other sensei of such well respected tradition and age (for more than 20 min), I understood I was not dealing with any common sensei.

In the same direction, there is other interesting story. I suppose you read Arthur Conan Doyle´s Sherlock Holmes novels. The writer invented that Sherlock Holmes studied a martial art which name is Baritsu. That was a mistake. The real name of that art was Bartitsu, and it was developed by a british gentleman (E.W.Burton-Wright was his name) who studied Shinden Fudo Ryu in the Kansai area and, then, based in that knowledge, he founded Bartitsu (we are talking about long, long time ago). The transmission was not full, but in any case I find very funny to think that, indirectly, the favorite caracther of my chilhood studied the same school I´m studying now. We asked Kawakami sensei about him, and he told us that his sensei told him about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

It´s really funny, because, if you remember Mr. Holme´s tricks and hidden weapons after this, it´s difficult not to surrender and think not only about Shinden Fudo Ryu but about other traditions which sometimes go together with SFr in Kansai area. It´s just fiction, but, after two centuries, the last mistery of Sherlock Holmes arrives to us.

Somebody should write a novel!!

 

[Bruno@MT]

It's a small world eh.

 

[Muawijhe]

I remember drawing a similar conclusion about Sherlock Holmes. I learned it was not the Shinden Fudo ryu in the Bujinkan, but another Shinden Fudo ryu (which I hear there were different schools with that name). I was not aware it was the one found in the Banke Shinobinoden.

 

[Akatombo]

Well, I´m not sure it´s the same lineage. But, according to Bartitsu Society web page, the name of the katas are the same. So, even if it was different line, I think it´s the same school at origin. Very small world, indeed.