Awesome video of 5th Dan Ju-Jitsu grading

Could it have something to do with passively compliant attackers?

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Chris Parker said:
What do you find impressive about it? If you answer, I'll tell you why I think it's a deplorable mess.
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Well I just thought, although most of it would be highly impractical in a real fight, it looked pretty cool to be honest. I know that's a bad answer and now you're going to tell me why I'm wrong but I just thought it was good to watch.
 
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Ha, no, not "wrong" as such, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But, by your admission, you are a white belt with less than a month of training in a modern generic system headed by a "10th Dan Hall of Fame" instructor, so perhaps you might benefit from some slightly more experienced eyes. First off, let's embed the clip for easy reference:


Well, the first thing is that this isn't Jujutsu. The prevalence of kicks coming from completely different systems (primarily karate/TKD, from the looks of them), combined with very ordinary transitions into takedowns (often very badly done, very low-return actions) just show this to be a modern invented system where someone has taken some techniques, and tried to put them together, calling it a martial art.

Going through the history of the system, it was founded in 1955 by a Frank Kovacs, who says he was trained in "traditional jiu-jitsu" (sic), karate, and judo, attaining a black belt in each. Hmm. He opened his first school (note: not this new system of Minna JiuJitsu) in 1954 as a self defence school teaching Jiu-jitsu, karate, judo, boxing, muay Thai, and savate. There are claims that "It is considered by many martial arts experts to be one of the most effective fighting systems in the world". Personally, I'd say there isn't really much evidence of a fighting "system" present... there is a lot of "techniques", but they don't really make a system as such. And I'd be rather interested to know who these "experts" are.

Moving on, Frank was tested and awarded his 10th Dan "at the Mayfield Academy by Korean 10th Dan Grandmaster Yoon-Kuen Lee, making him one of the highest ranking Grandmasters in the world". How was someone from outside his system, ranked in something completely different (there isn't even any mention of any Korean systems in Franks bio) able to rank Frank in his own art? And "one of the highest ranking Grandmasters in the world"? No, lots of people get friends/committees/Hall of Fame boards to certify them to that rank and above... (all this info taken from http://minnajiujitsu.net/enter.html, for reference).

Going back to the video, the kicks are fairly sloppy and low-powered compared with, say, a TKD practitioner doing the same ones. The takedowns are frankly terrible, with too much space in the main (a side effect of starting with the idea that kicking range is where you should fight from, then trying to apply in-close techniques from that range), or just very poor positioning. The transitions into the joint locks are very loose, poorly applied, and badly done.

When we get up to the techniques being applied against the attacker in the black pants, our 5th Dan candidate is almost universally cramped, his movements are stunted and short, meaning there isn't really much power in them (compared with the potential), and many of the actions simply don't have the effect they are shown to have here. A lot of the takedowns are convoluted and almost impossible to actually use. The work on the chair was just terrible.

At around the 2:30 mark, there were a couple of almost decent goshi nage (hip throws), fairly standard judo, really, but he's still too high, and not getting his hips into the action enough.

I'm sorry, at 2:54 does he start biting his opponent?

The weapon defences (particularly those against knives) would get you killed, and the weapon use (particularly the chain) showed no real understanding of how such items move or work. The sparring was okay karate style sparring, but no real jujutsu there at all.

Most of the techniques were overkill, overly muscled, poorly chosen and executed, done from badly positioned angles and distances, relatively powerless, or just bad. But potentially the worst of the entire thing is the way the attackers, once having thrown their attack, just stand there. No real registering of the effects of any strikes or defensive actions, no continual movement, nothing. They just stand there and get hit/thrown with techniques that only work if your opponent just stands there waiting to get hit and thrown. This is a collection of techniques, not a martial art to my mind. And a poor collection at that.

However, I do love Janes Addiction, so having Mountain Song playing was cool.
 
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wait, you are only a white belt and already on Martial talk? Those exist o_O????

I think you are the first non black belt I have met on these forums :p Granted, I'm new to the forums as of only about a month or so.

Anyway, good sir Grasshopper, I would highly suggest that as a white belt, you stay away from creating topics that will be highly opinionated. I'm saying this because, as a new white belt and new martial artist in general, you may find the words some of us say to be discouraging or hurtful. I've been there done that with other hobbies in life. What you think is an "awesome video" gets cut down and suddenly you feel personally attacked.


Anyway about the video itself, I feel, and this is coming from a taekwondo fighter, that a lot of the moves the guy was doing are largely unecessary, and quite frankly, the attacker in real life is not going to sit there for that long and take those full combos. The spinning tornado kicks ( from close range? That's not what they are for... ) and karate style sacrifice kicks ( that's really not a counter move... ) just were....over the top. The style itself seems to be trying to be an incredibly flashy pure self defense system...but in reality it is the simplest, not the most complex, methods you will resort to in a combat scenario. You won't be thinking "okay, punch, lock the arm, double kick, elbow, spinny jump kick, elbow on the ground". More than likely you will only be thinking "hit him and don't get hit". It seemed like the moves were chorographed to look cool more than to decimate the opponent. For most of those situations, I could probably think of ways on the fly to decimate the opponent a little faster without killing them ( most of which include knees to the groin or elbows to the face followed by a basic sweeps and finishes ...but that's because those moves are just so versetile and easy to perform. )


Granted, you are right. the video is awesome in that it is fun to watch, but I'm seeing some flaws there. It is almost as if they said "let's take krav maga, take out all of the simplicity, add in overly compicated ways to get out of things, and replace the simplicity with only the most difficult to execute karate and taekwondo moves...without actually knowing when these karate and taekwondo moves are supposed to be used!"

I mean honestly, when your weapon defense includes a segment where a guy does a spinning hook kick rather than just using knees or elbows or other things...that's not the best technique. In fact, any head strike with your feat ( where the head is not lowered to your level ) is bad mojo for self defense in general. It can work...but it can also screw you over if they catch it or you stumble. Save those for the sparring ring.

Note, I've never even taken jiu jitsu by the way, but the fact that I completely understand most of the moves these guys were doing, I would have to say this video is more taekwondo/karate mixed with a few locks and basic sweeps than anything else.
 
Chris Parker said:
Moving on, Frank was tested and awarded his 10th Dan "at the Mayfield Academy by Korean 10th Dan Grandmaster Yoon-Kuen Lee, making him one of the highest ranking Grandmasters in the world". How was someone from outside his system, ranked in something completely different (there isn't even any mention of any Korean systems in Franks bio) able to rank Frank in his own art? And "one of the highest ranking Grandmasters in the world"?
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I can't say that I have heard of GM Yoon-Kuen Lee. Also, Kuen is an unusual spelling for a korean name. I think more like Kun or Keun. Might be a typo though. Can't tell without more information, like what art in GM Lee ranked 10th Dan in.
 
While I agree there were but a few jujutsu techniques, I suppose it depends on what the guy is trying to do. One can only assume that his brief was to demonstrate knowledge of a list of techniques. Now we may agree that certain techniques are of little street value, but if they are in the curriculum then it's only fair that they be tested. Under pressure of a grading I can accept that not all techniques will be performed flawlessly and I will even excuse a compliant partner.

As Chris said, some of the weapon defence was straight 60s stuff that would put your health at risk but, if that is what he had to demonstrate, it is the fault of the system. So, I went looking and as Chris pointed out, there is no 'system'. Kovacs had base level training in a number of martial arts, fought in the war in Europe and was a combat instructor, then migrated to the US and set up his school that he calls ju-jitsu. In reality, it is a 'freestyle' system, with bits of everything, that appears to me more karate than jujutsu. He is now about 90 and it would appear he has awarded over 4000 blackbelts which is an average of about 65 a year. That seems rather a lot but he does have a number of branches.
http://zomobo.net/play.php?id=C5cdrHEnDdM

Here is one of his demos; http://zomobo.net/play.php?id=hvAw8_jHY-8 It looks to me more like an SD demo than martial art.

So to get back to the grading, just what do you test? i suppose if you haven't got kata all you can do is test techniques. Not for us to judge the quality of his students. The video claims this system as the first MMA and it possibly is, at least in the US. So Grasshopper, thanks for posting, perhaps not so awesome, but interesting all the same. :asian:
 
To be blunt, his body movement was terribly unconvincing.

His return to stance movement, looked kyu grade at best. I also think watching him for a minute or two on a heavy bag would be very telling in terms of power delivery, i can tell he has weak wrists.

What was with the slow motion everything, no pace/snap. It was as if the only requirement was to perform the set, and nothing else was of any concern.

Did the bloke in the red tee go to sleep around the 2.50 mark! Are we being punked? lol, Its like the guys body moves like a kyu grade yet he has all these flashy techs.. Im confused!

Still, good on him for training and all that, :)
 
Chris Parker said:
The work on the chair was just terrible.
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I couldn't force myself to watch much past the chair stuff.

At around the 2:30 mark, there were a couple of almost decent goshi nage (hip throws), fairly standard judo, really, but he's still too high, and not getting his hips into the action enough.
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I've seen people hit hip-tosses in randori & shiai that were from worse positioning and sloppier by far. That said, those hip-tosses weren't what I would expect from a 5th Dan candidate with a compliant uke in the middle of a staged event.

The weapon defences (particularly those against knives) would get you killed, and the weapon use (particularly the chain) showed no real understanding of how such items move or work.
Click to expand...
There was weapon work in there too?!?! “Oh Christ! It is the Inchcape Rock!”

[edit]OK, I had to go back and watch the weapons work. I am appalled. You can't "un-see" something like that. Is it possible to inject heroin directly into my eyeballs? I could write 1,000 words alone on the very first anti-knife technique. Reminds me of Jim Carrey's SNL skit.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
Since Chris already dissected the stand-up portion of the demo, I guess I'll just mention that the submissions were sloppy and would not have produced the quick tapouts that his uke was giving him.

All that said, I think the guy has some actual skill at what he was taught - he displays some genuine coordination in controlling his own body to display some flashy moves on a compliant uke who presents a stationary target and falls down as soon as you kiai at him. The problem is that without understanding the proper application of the techniques in context against an actual opponent, all you have is a dance rather than a martial art.

I will add that I've seen plenty of school demos that were about this level or even worse in terms of realism. Back when I was first beginning in the martial arts I found those impressive and I probably would have found this video impressive as well.
 
lklawson said:
I couldn't force myself to watch much past the chair stuff.

I've seen people hit hip-tosses in randori & shiai that were from worse positioning and sloppier by far. That said, those hip-tosses weren't what I would expect from a 5th Dan candidate with a compliant uke in the middle of a staged event.

There was weapon work in there too?!?! “Oh Christ! It is the Inchcape Rock!”

[edit]OK, I had to go back and watch the weapons work. I am appalled. You can't "un-see" something like that. Is it possible to inject heroin directly into my eyeballs? I could write 1,000 words alone on the very first anti-knife technique. Reminds me of Jim Carrey's SNL skit.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Click to expand...

You see now, Kirk, I was trying to be diplomatic.... well, I felt I was diplomatic when I called it a deplorable mess....
 
I don't see how that candidate was 'tested' at all. That looked more like a demo to me.
 
I won't be as harsh as some. I, like you, enjoy watching a bunch of techniques. It looks cool right?! But they are right in what they are saying. Just don't take it personal. Look at it as a lesson that just made you a better artist.
 
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