Arm Break Application from Chum Kiu.

[mook jong man]

Did some 'random arms' the other day with a young bloke I've been training for a few years and either my eyes are getting slower or his hands are getting faster.

But there were a few instances where his punching arm ended up trapped inside my guard between the front and rear hand.
Using a variation of the arm break from Chum Kiu I quickly switched position of my hands to Pak Sau the elbow with one hand while I Pak Sau the wrist with the other hand as I pivoted.

Done ballistically this will break the outstretched arm at the elbow.

You use that against a conventional straight punch where the fist is horizontal , just in case someone's not aware ,with the Wing Chun punch instead of applying pressure laterally you must apply force upwards underneath the elbow with one hand and apply pressure downwards on the wrist with the other.
This move you will recognise from the Chum Kiu.

Another more gentle variation I use that is not strictly Wing Chun is that I trap the wrist against my upper chest as I step offline to the blindside and apply pressure to his tricep with the upper Garn Sau which then becomes an arm bar type takedown.

If you use this one it is crucial that you step out to the blindside as he will be trying to hit you with the other hand as you apply pressure to the tricep of his trapped arm.

It's important that you don't go looking to do this stuff , practice the movements by all means , priority is to strike.
But in the chaos of reflex training you somehow end up with his arm between both of yours then why not take advantage of the situation.

Do you other guys do stuff like this or do you just slap the arm away and keep striking.

I'm waiting for someone to tell me that their guard is so impregnable that no strike has ever penetrated it's defences so they have never needed such techniques .

 

[yak sao]

like you said, the priority is to strike, but it is amazing how much cnin na is presented to you in the course of going through chi sau training.
Where people go wrong is they do what you advised against...they go looking for it and try to force the technique instead of letting it come to them.

 

[WingChunIan]

If you're reffering to the tok sau jut sao action towards the begining of chum kiu (which kind of fits your description) then I'm sceptical that it can break a person's arm. On an odd occassion that might be the result but IME its rare against a moving resisting opponent especially one with thick muscular arms. I prefer to use the technique to shock the arm and disrupt the balance / posture of the assailant, but i do agree that to go looking for it is a mistake.

 

[Jake104]

like you said, the priority is to strike, but it is amazing how much cnin na is presented to you in the course of going through chi sau training.
Where people go wrong is they do what you advised against...they go looking for it and try to force the technique instead of letting it come to them.

Exactly! When you finaly stop looking at things in terms of just techniques. But instead see it as energy and one technique you can apply thousands of different ways. You will nevr again have to go looking for it. It will just be there when you need it.

 

[geezer]

Exactly! When you finaly stop looking at things in terms of just techniques. But instead see it as energy and one technique you can apply thousands of different ways. You will nevr again have to go looking for it. It will just be there when you need it.

Wise words. The trouble is that most people like to nail things down in simple, concrete bits of information. They like to know that, "this movement has such and such an application, whereas that movement is applied like this." Good Wing Chun, ...heck, good martial arts of any kind are not like that. They are about learning ways to move and deal with energy. They are about mastering broad concepts like power, speed (distance timing and velocity) focus and attitude, balance. and transition. I stole that list from Rene Latosa, but you can break it down anyway you like.

Now back to the OP. No Mook, my old WT sifu hated that particular arm-break interpretation of that move in Chum Kiun so we didn't teach that application. As for myself, I suppose it could work, but I wouldn't call it a "high percentage" move. On the other hand, the upper gaun sau/arm bar you mentioned does seem to work pretty well, but I never related it to that sequence in chum kiu.

 

[mook jong man]

If you're reffering to the tok sau jut sao action towards the begining of chum kiu (which kind of fits your description) then I'm sceptical that it can break a person's arm. On an odd occassion that might be the result but IME its rare against a moving resisting opponent especially one with thick muscular arms. I prefer to use the technique to shock the arm and disrupt the balance / posture of the assailant, but i do agree that to go looking for it is a mistake.

Well it depends on a few factors , as you said how muscular the arm is , for one.
But mainly it depends on the angle of his arm at the point of capture , if he has a bend in it then it is going to be a lot harder to break than if he has it extended and locked out.

But at the very least it will jar the elbow joint and cause quite a lot of pain , which can then open up the defences for further striking.
But having said that it is quite hard to apply against a good Wing Chun man because by the time you have trapped the arm he is already in the process of retracting his arm back into the optimum angle.

 

[mook jong man]

Wise words. The trouble is that most people like to nail things down in simple, concrete bits of information. They like to know that, "this movement has such and such an application, whereas that movement is applied like this." Good Wing Chun, ...heck, good martial arts of any kind are not like that. They are about learning ways to move and deal with energy. They are about mastering broad concepts like power, speed (distance timing and velocity) focus and attitude, balance. and transition. I stole that list from Rene Latosa, but you can break it down anyway you like.

Now back to the OP. No Mook, my old WT sifu hated that particular arm-break interpretation of that move in Chum Kiun so we didn't teach that application. As for myself, I suppose it could work, but I wouldn't call it a "high percentage" move. On the other hand, the upper gaun sau/arm bar you mentioned does seem to work pretty well, but I never related it to that sequence in chum kiu.

Geezer , I can understand why he hated it , because it is very hard to apply against another Wing Chun man because as I said to Ian by the time you have trapped his arm he has already started to retract his arm and his elbow is sunken down and you just don't have the leverage to apply any decent force.
I don't particularly use it either.

But against straight punches where the fist is horizontal and the elbow is pointed outwards and if the opponent has over extended himself then a quick pivot while pressing in with both forearms or two opposing Pak sau's work pretty well to exert pressure on that extended arm.

I just think of it as a variation in the direction of the two forces applied in the chum Kiu technique but now directed laterally.

But your right , maybe it is closer in application to being from the other forms like SLT with all the Pak Sau's and forearms moving across laterally , dunno , you got any ideas?

 

[Danny T]

In my experience it is within the dynamic action of attacking that arm bar techniques as described occur. One must practice the particular techniques in order to know the feel and timing but to expect a particular action to work at any one time will cause major disappointment. It is being in the proper position with proper timing and attacking the opponent that the techniques will manifest. We work several variations of 'split entry' counterattacks that create the opportunity to utilize the jeep sao action for several different attack actions. Could be a neck snap, could be an arm bar, could be a palm strike or upper cut strike, could simply be a clearing action. All depends upon the situation.

 

[geezer]

...But against straight punches where the fist is horizontal and the elbow is pointed outwards and if the opponent has over extended himself then a quick pivot while pressing in with both forearms or two opposing Pak sau's work pretty well to exert pressure on that extended arm.

I just think of it as a variation in the direction of the two forces applied in the chum Kiu technique but now directed laterally.

But you're right, maybe it is closer in application to being from the other forms like SLT with all the Pak Sau's and forearms moving across laterally , dunno , you got any ideas?

Mook, I agree with you on applying the cross break against a straight horizontal-fist punch. Not so good against WC, but may work better against other styles. We train that break in the Escrima I do... where guys often punch like that. Escrima has a lot of joint attacks and "limb destructions". My problem as a 'chunner is that I don't like to mess around hurting their arm when I can just as easily punch their noggin. The most I can bring myself to accept is giving the joint a quick, disrupting jolt on the way in to deliver punches.

Now as to my ideas about where you would find that in the forms... if great masters like Tsui Sheung Tin and Wong Shun Leung can see that arm break in those Chum Kiu moves, I'm not going to argue. Other great masters see other things there. It's like Jake said. And Danny T. See the energy, and you can derive endless techniques, depending on the situation.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, I agree with you on applying the cross break against a straight horizontal-fist punch. Not so good against WC, but may work better against other styles. We train that break in the Escrima I do... where guys often punch like that. Escrima has a lot of joint attacks and "limb destructions". My problem as a 'chunner is that I don't like to mess around hurting their arm when I can just as easily punch their noggin. The most I can bring myself to accept is giving the joint a quick, disrupting jolt on the way in to deliver punches.

Now as to my ideas about where you would find that in the forms... if great masters like Tsui Sheung Tin and Wong Shun Leung can see that arm break in those Chum Kiu moves, I'm not going to argue. Other great masters see other things there. It's like Jake said. And Danny T. See the energy, and you can derive endless techniques, depending on the situation.

No that's only my interpretation of it , I've never seen TST demo an arm break trap , the closest thing to it was one time Sifu had us doing armbreaks against lapel grabs , which is something similar
I was hoping you might be able to pinpoint where the cross breaking motions come from , it's got to be there somewhere in the forms surely.

I mean it's a pretty common occurrence that you think he's going to punch round and you get an arm out there but he punches straight and sneaks through on the inside.
You realise your error and quickly try and get your arm back in and suddenly you've ended up with his arm between your arms.

 

[WingChunIan]

No that's only my interpretation of it , I've never seen TST demo an arm break trap , the closest thing to it was one time Sifu had us doing armbreaks against lapel grabs , which is something similar
I was hoping you might be able to pinpoint where the cross breaking motions come from , it's got to be there somewhere in the forms surely.

I mean it's a pretty common occurrence that you think he's going to punch round and you get an arm out there but he punches straight and sneaks through on the inside.
You realise your error and quickly try and get your arm back in and suddenly you've ended up with his arm between your arms.

I normally find that sinking the elbow back to the centre and recycling the other arm is both instinctive, safe and effective. FWIW I don't think its a bad thing for lots of different opinions to exist, looking at the same puzzle with fresh eyes often yields a different view which is why I like these boards so much.

 

[Jake104]

Wise words. The trouble is that most people like to nail things down in simple, concrete bits of information. They like to know that, "this movement has such and such an application, whereas that movement is applied like this." Good Wing Chun, ...heck, good martial arts of any kind are not like that. They are about learning ways to move and deal with energy. They are about mastering broad concepts like power, speed (distance timing and velocity) focus and attitude, balance. and transition. I stole that list from Rene Latosa, but you can break it down anyway you like.

Now back to the OP. No Mook, my old WT sifu hated that particular arm-break interpretation of that move in Chum Kiun so we didn't teach that application. As for myself, I suppose it could work, but I wouldn't call it a "high percentage" move. On the other hand, the upper gaun sau/arm bar you mentioned does seem to work pretty well, but I never related it to that sequence in chum kiu.[/

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."


I guess I have been lucky enough to have had teachers in my life that taught the latter.

As far as techniques applications in forms go. IMO it's a way to keep the beginner interested in doing the forms. By showing an application here and there, it keeps them interested and shows some usefulness of what might otherwise look like a sequence of meaningless movements to a beginner.

But IMO the forms hold much much more that just a sequence of movements or set applications. But instead hold the combination that is needed to unlock power generation, energy awareness, speed, timing structure.the list goes on and on... A good teacher should teach how to become self-sufficient and independent in learning not a slave to it.

 

[geezer]

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

I heard that one, but I like it better this way:

"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a while. Light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett

 

[wtxs]

I heard that one, but I like it better this way:

"Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a while. Light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett

I'm hoping this is an missed quote, by lighting a man on fire ... he wouldn't have much of an life to enjoy the warmth IMO.

 

[Eric_H]

I'm hoping this is an missed quote, by lighting a man on fire ... he wouldn't have much of an life to enjoy the warmth IMO.

That's zee joke.

 

[Domino]

Hmmm I like this, pretty much sums up a little problem I been having. Cheers ears !