To clarify, I would not view Shihap Kyorugi as a stand alone self defense. I would also work on eye gouge, elbow strike, etc, but for full contact experience, Shihap Kyorugi is enough, that is my point. I would also think of using weapons, either on my person (make sure you know the law) or weapons from my environment, and what a lot of people fail to do is use mental deceptions.
Then I think I agree. Sparring full contact allows us to experience hitting and getting hit by a fully resistant moving opponent, at some (limited) risk. Some of that experience is useful in drilling non sparring techniques.
I have had people try to sweep me too, it never worked, and I was not an elite fighter. That said, if you work very hard, and develop your time, explosiveness and your technique, not only to where you are extremely fast (quick), but also extremely powerful with your punch or kick, chances are they won't have time to sweep you, or kick and punch you, or do anything. Have you ever met anyone like that?
I think regardless of my own ability level, it depends on how well practiced the 'sweeper' is, and how hard they have worked on their technique. So yes, I've met people like this - sparrers who seem
almost infallible. But my point is I've also met people at the same level with techniques like the standing leg sweep. They had trained with sweeps more regularly than I had. Their greater experience with those techniques relative to my own cost me, as I had vulnerabilities I was unable to perceive due to my lack of insight into those types of techniques. Nobody is infallible, and I like to try and keep an open mind. I'm all for being strong & fast in the bread and butter techniques, but the point I'm making is that training outside of the sparring rule framework can help identify potential vulnerabilities in my perception of how combat works.
No, those other skills they eliminated from Shihap Kyorugi were incompatible with the goal of developing kicking, punching, time, distance, accuracy, etc to it's highest potential level. After several decades of full contact sparring under the Shihap Kyorugi rule set, they expected highly improved methods of training for the skills of kicking, punching, time, distance, accuracy, etc. to improve Taekwondo over all. Those skills that they eliminated from Shihap Kyorugi, including knife, bayonett, eye gouge etc, are found in the other types of Kukkiwon Taekwondo Kyorugi.
And it's worked if that was the aim. I don't think anyone with actual TKD experience would dispute the power of the kicks. It's my lament that some of the techniques from the poomsae and the other types of Kukkiwon Kyorugi appear somewhat less practised, and my aim (for my own training) to keep what I consider a healthy balance in terms of training time.
Constant training to use your hands and feet for kicking, punching, grabbing, etc under severe adrenal stress will enable you to develop the use of your fine motor skill technique under the most extreme adrenal stress. If you are not use to functioning in the way, under extreme adrenal stress ---- adrenal stress will also shut down gross motor skills and of course clear and decisive actions as well.
So your attacker just stood still and let you "Punch to the face, palm heel to the face, eye poke, shin kick, push with the hands, tripping takedowns, knee strikes" ? How were you being attacked?
It's nowhere near the same now I'm in Munich, which feels much safer, but in England I lived in a pretty scary place where some form of violence is pretty much the norm on any given night of the week. I've had several actual, recent experiences of being attacked (not getting into 'fights', but being attacked). I can totally agree on the adrenal stress point. 5 or 10 years ago, the thought of a violent encounter would have rooted me to the spot with terror, frozen and unable to act (and sometimes still can, depending on the situation leading up to and the nature of the encounter). Experience with TKD, the writings of Geoff Thompson on adrenal control, and trying to recognise and deal with some real situations have allowed me to gain some degree of control over my adrenal responses.
No, you're right, people don't just stand there. Oh wait, one of them sort of did. I was walking home from the pub on Christmas eve with 2 of my friends, and he and his mate were walking in the other direction, and became confrontational. He was waving a beer bottle around like he was going to hit me with it. Managed to talk him into throwing it away, but even after that, when I tried to leave, they blocked my path. He stood in front of me with his fist raised at face level and said 'you're going nowhere' or something to that effect. With hindsight, I should have struck pre-emptively at this point. As it was, he punched me in the face (a glancing blow, but splitting my lips open), at the same time as I launched a heavy back kick into him. I was dazed having spun to the ground but somehow stood up facing his accomplice, who I poked in the eyes, then grabbed the 2 girls I was with and we ran off. The original hitter must have been out of the game, as he just seemed to disappear. I don't know, I had tunnel vision and what felt like a massive panic attack coming on.
On another occasion a gang of six men set about me with a metal sack trolley as I walked home from a friends house in daylight, breaking bones in my foot, fingers, and face, causing blunt trauma and making threats of further comebacks if the police were involved. The weeks following this were some of the worst of my life. I suffered depression for a long time after.
Another time I saw one of said gang alone, and prevented said comebacks through words and a push alone.
Another time someone tried to suckerpunch me after asking whether I had the time, then smashed my head into the door of a McDonald's. I responded in kind, then cried all the way home.
I'm not going to list out every encounter with violence I've ever had, and I want to say that I don't go looking for it, it's just the way it is in that town. The police were involved in all the above cases. From these situations though, one can learn to recognise and deal with adrenal responses, and also discover what works, what's realistic and what is too fancy / complex. In my experience things with a single, simple, balanced movement work well - low kick, hit, poke, push etc. This is also where I noticed that you can only do so much against six assailants armed with a metal sack trolley, so what you do do needs to be devastating.
How is that you are getting a "high return on investment" with adrenaline, if you are not doing what you do under the REAL threat of personal injury and even knockout with dangerous full contact strikes raining down at you?
I'm educating myself in the physiology, psychology, recognition of and methodology for dealing with adrenal stress. I get a high return on that invested time by waiting for the next adrenalin-heavy situation to arise (pretty much inevitable), and applying what I have learned. I'm getting better at dealing with it, but every occurence is slightly different in nature. The fear of being knocked out in the ring doesn't compare to that of having your fingers broken and head stoved in with a sack trolley, for example. From there, it's a fairly simple leap of the imagination to ask 'would THIS have worked if I was feeling like THAT?', and to be honest with youself when answering.
Anything can happen to anyone on any given day. That said the likely hood of anything working against him is reduced by his superior time, distance, speed, skill and iron will power. And that being said, an Olympic fighter can easily decide to elbow in clinch, punch someone face (they do it all the time in matches), kick a shin, sweep someone off their feet, or kick them in the groin.
I don't know if you could imagine it or not, but if you can, envision getting kicked in groin, or punched in the face by an Olympic level Taekwondo athlete, and then envision that if they decided to do that, there would be nothing you could do to stop it, unless you were are their level. And they could do it over and over and over again, but it would only take one.
To me, that is a good goal to enhance your self defense, train to that level, like an Olympian, with the goal of giving an Olympic level **** beating if needed
I agree, all you can do is increase your chances, but for me it comes down to the equation of time invested versus reward. Undoubtedly my footwork, kicking abilities and experience of ring and assault adrenalin helped in the above situations. I'm not sure that I would have fared differently versus the 6 guys with any amount of olympic training. If 6 people decide to hit you with a sack trolley, they are probably going to do it, it's just a question of how many you can take out. I do agree that you have to train something, though, and delivery of quick strikes is part of that package that I see as valuable in the experience that I've had.
The original intent was that in Shihap Kyorugi we were to learn to strike a thinking moving target with the bare fist, and the bare foot, like they would in self defense. They eliminated the face punch because it was something that was A) they wanted to keep the bare fist, and full contact method B) and as trained fighters, it would be very likely for them to bust out teeth, shatter jaw bones, etc. So allowing them to punch full contact, starting just 6 inches lower, would allow them to retain full contact punching with the bare fist. Also, by making the rule that the punch had to be so hard, it had to induce trembling shock into the body, would guarantee that if they decided to aim 6 inches higher in a self defense situation, it would practical kill their attacker, hold true to the "one strike, one kill" early philosophy.
And if you are thinking that because during Shihap Kyorugi, they are not worried about face punching, so when they are in a situation without rules they would easily fall prey to face punching, or anything else, think again. Do like I did, find a truly elite fighter, or several. Spar with them, then ask them if you could put on gloves (or not) and do that same, but now with face punching allowed, from both sides. Let me know how that works out.
I'm not suggesting that at all - it depends on the person. I do note, however that in my experience, small changes in the rules (addition of punching, or sweeping, or changes to the scoring system) significantly change the way that people behave in the ring, and I believe for myself that if I don't train it, I won't do it. Therefore, punching and palm heels are high on my agenda for repetitive training in motion.
I have my doubts about that. Maybe you can clarify these methods, and shed a new light on them, or maybe it's something I have never tried before? Please expand.
Get a red man suit
. The attacker can still move pretty freely, can still advance and attack with intent, and responses to the attacks can be full blooded, contact strikes, gouges, bites, whatever.
Alternatively, aggressive padwork in motion is effective, IF all the practitioners have experience of real assault situations and can translate what they are practising to reality and vice versa.
I have found, from many many personal experiences that without participating in the "all hell raining down on you" full contact fighting experience (over at least a several year period of time) all the analogies, plans, and "close to reality situations" go right out the window when such a person take the first hard explosive blow, and then the immediate following hard explosive blows turn their defense into a train wreck.
I agree that this is true to a point, until one can (partially) learn to at least tolerate the 'getting hit' part, and start to deal with psychological and physiological issues associated with initiating a response and dealing with consequences. But I think those with experience of actual violence can use that experience to gain valid results from their simulation training.
Actually you are on the right track, I think. This whole conversation may not seem like it, but it is centered around what is of true value that is found within the Poomsae Keumgang, which is the point of this thread. We just had to take a some side roads to get to there.
Yes, Keumgang, the poomsae that mystifies me with it's content from a practical perspective! If there is meaning beyond the symbolic / spiritual, I'd love to better understand it.
I never see it as an argument.
I'm glad. I'm doing my best to think and give a considered, balanced response. I'm not sure I always succeed in doing so, but I will always keep an open mind. Sometimes I have a nasty habit of stating my opinion as fact (working on ironing it out), but I'm always open to suggestions.
Thanks again for your considered responses.
