Application of Keumgang Makki, Hakdariseogi, and following motions

[Gnarlie]

Please help. I've been looking for applications for every TKD poomsae for a very long time, but a couple of motions are quite tricky to even justify, when it comes to practicality and purpose. Does anybody want to make a suggestion as to what the intended purpose of this movement in the KKW Poomsae Keumgang is for? There are no bad ideas, please contribute. It's the movement on the right in the pictures below, and is followed by kheundoltzeogi (large hinge) in juchoomseogi (horseriding stance), spin, and repeat. I'd love to understand what the meaning behind this sequence is. See also video.

Thanks in advance, look forward to hearing theories.

 

[Cyriacus]

Pic 2, as far as I can tell, its Blocking a Front or Side Kick coming in from the Side, whilst Chambering the Leg to Counter, then switching to a different Technique.
Specifically what seems to be either a Close Distance Punch, or, given the Patterns Fundament, it could be just advancing strongly.
I cant say Id be blown away if there was a bit less significance to it, however. Id suggest a Leg Grab, but theres too much Chamber. If You trimmed out the Chamber, Id say, Block Leg > Grab Leg > Punch Body.

The whole thing seems to be for fighting of Multiple Attackers though.

 

[dancingalone]

Not a KKW guy, but I study and teach Goju-ryu karate which has some similar motion within Saifa, one of our kata. This sequence of movements starting with what you term a 'large hinge' can be interpreted as a head/neck throw or even a choke with one guiding the attacker to the ground behind the grasp.

 

[Gnarlie]

I've been toying with the idea of a head / neck lock and throw for the Large Hinge motion. Dancingalone, could you give any more detail on how this works in the Goju Kata? I've just been looking at videos for it. I can sort of envisage how it might work, but if you have a clear picture in your head or an existing interpretation from Goju, I'd love to hear a description.

Cyriacus, the leg grab idea is something I'd not considered. Need to ruminate on that for a couple of days - the stepping turn could be significant in this scenario. I can see that the motion could be used to capture and turn the foot toe down, then step in and sweep the standing foot...would need to try it out...

Thank you both for your thoughts. I'm viewing the Pic2 motion as a possible collar strangle from outside the opponent's arm, the high hand reaching in and pulling the collar upward under the throat, the low hand gripping the opponent's nearest wrist and pulling downward to oppose the choke. Combine this with the raised knee striking the opponents 'dead leg' point on the thigh, (Gall Bladder 31), thereby taking out the undercarriage and leaving the opponents full bodyweight hanging on the collar choke. The 'one leg' balance would only last the duration of the strike.

Having suspended the guy in a choke for an 8 count or so, we then step into the Large Hinge neck lock / throw, pulling the head down to the small hinge chamber, then flipping to the large hinge on the other side of our body, flipping the opponent onto their back. The step around then becomes the neck throw over the hip.

Does this sound feasible? Can anyone add anything / critique? I've thought about this for so long I don't know if it even makes sense anymore.

 

[dancingalone]

I've been toying with the idea of a head / neck lock and throw for the Large Hinge motion. Dancingalone, could you give any more detail on how this works ...

A basic adaption of the double arm chambering to the rear before reversing it to the front is a rudimentary neck throw. From a preceding sequence, you have acquired a clinch on the attacker with your left hand on the back of his neck and you have secured a partial front head lock with your right arm encircling the side and front of his neck/head. (You are facing each other and he is bent over, his head within the crook of your right arm.)

From there, the back chamber of the 'large hinge' is an unbalancing movement as you remove his stability by cranking his neck towards you and to your rear, likely stepping your right leg back into a medium front stance to assist. Done correctly, you have separated the connection from his head to his shoulders and hips, so he should be extremely off balance. Complete the throw by moving the 'front hinge' forward. In actual application, you are reversing his neck/body position so that he is turning/spinning around now with his back towards you and you bring him down with pressure to the neck and shoulders as you move yourself out of the way to take away his body support.

Hope that makes sense to you. It's a very simple movement but I am clumsy trying to describe it in words.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

While I do not know Seifa or Keumgang, the movement that Dancing is describing sounds similar to the neck throw that we use in the form Rohai. Mr. Kedrowski (Makalakula) put up some boonhae to that movement that may shed some light on the subject.



The movement is at around 1:00.. .

 

[dancingalone]

Very close to what I described, except my version had a reversal of motion to the 'left' side for the actual throw.

 

[Gnarlie]

Thanks all, I can really visualise that better now. Keumgang is something of an enigmatic pattern with its one-leg balances, rotations and mountain blocks. I really think it's about teaching neck manipulation - palm heel neck striking / head manipulation, knife hand neck striking, standing collar choke / neck throw, standing strangle escape (with mountain block), sliding collar strangle and finishing leverage (with wedging block and twin low side block). Adding in the neck throw would be like the cherry on the cake for me, making a nice cohesive theme for the pattern. Thanks again! Any further thoughts welcome, obv

 

[puunui]

Thanks in advance, look forward to hearing theories.

to give one explanation from a kukki taekwondo perspective, the second photo reminds me of what steven lopez does, which we labeled "surfing" back in the 90s. He is standing sideways, with his front leg bent, which blocks or covers the front side of his body from attacks, specifically roundhouse kicks to the front side. His back side is covered by his front arm in a down block position. His rear arm is raised to cover his face on both sides.

The movement after this one, to me can be interpreted as what we call a trap back kick, meaning he takes a step forward, and does a back kick (not shown in the poomsae) and failing that, he positions his rear hand in what people call a short punch, but can actually be a cover or down block, with the front hand positioned to punch. This plays the percentages because if he missed with his trap back kick, then the natural and most common counter from is opponent would be a roundhouse kick to his stomach, to which he is perfectly positioned to counter, with a front hand cover punch. If there is no counter roundhouse kick, then instead of doing a front hand cover punch, he can instead to a rear leg roundhouse kick follow up.

 

[Gnarlie]

Thanks Puunui - interesting thoughts, I haven't really looked at the pattern from a sparring perspective before, but I know just what you mean about surfing - Sport technique would explain a lot of that rotation...I have often wondered why Keumgang is so relatively simple compared to the other patterns in terms of hand movements. Could this be the reason why? Was there meant to be some sport meaning to this pattern? I'm working at the moment on the assumption that this is not the case, but who knows! I'll keep it in mind!

 

[puunui]

Thanks Puunui - interesting thoughts, I haven't really looked at the pattern from a sparring perspective before, but I know just what you mean about surfing - Sport technique would explain a lot of that rotation...I have often wondered why Keumgang is so relatively simple compared to the other patterns in terms of hand movements. Could this be the reason why? Was there meant to be some sport meaning to this pattern? I'm working at the moment on the assumption that this is not the case, but who knows! I'll keep it in mind!

I don't know if focusing on the concept of "sport technique" will get you to where you want to go. Other poomsae also have "sport techniques" embedded in them as well. For example, the front kick double middle punch combination that is in a couple few of the Kukkiwon poomsae was a common competition combination back in the 1960s, when the Kukkiwon poomsae were first conceived of and created.

The idea of Keumgang is to focus on the development of power, which is shown in the many examples of dynamic tension like movements contained in the form. In contrast, Taebaek was created to emphasize the concept of speed or the development of speed. When practicing Taebaek, my instructor would tell us to race each other doing the form and the one who did it the fastest was the winner. When practicing Keumgang, my instructor would stretch the poomsae out and make those dynamic tension like movements as long and as slow as possible. Koryo is a form that has many different movements in it. So Koryo is for form, Keumgang is for power and Taebaek is for speed, which is the traditional developmental path training techniques in taekwondo -- form first, then power, then speed. That is the focus of the first three Kukkiwon yudanja poomsae, which by the way are all physical focuses. The next three focus on mental development, and the last three focus on spiritual or philosophical development. This is also the traditional way of training - body, then mind then spirit. Only taekwondo explains these concepts within the names, movement and/or philosophy embedded in its forms.

 

[jks9199]

Just a thought, since I'm not familiar with the form, and am just seeing a few pieces in isolation -- but is that maybe the problem. Some of my forms have moves that, by themselves wouldn't make a lot of sense, and only make sense as part of the combination or sequence of moves involved.

 

[puunui]

Just a thought, since I'm not familiar with the form, and am just seeing a few pieces in isolation -- but is that maybe the problem. Some of my forms have moves that, by themselves wouldn't make a lot of sense, and only make sense as part of the combination or sequence of moves involved.

There is a link to the entire form posted in this subject. I included the link in the quoted part of my response as well as the two photos.

 

[mastercole]

Poomsae Keumgang, as all Poomsae, is highly symbolic and philosophical. Don’t think of Poomsae in terms of application. Poomsae techniques, like all forms, are mostly theory, very little application. Sparring is application.

After a long bout with Taoist thought in the Taegeuk Poomsae, it is usually the non-Buddhist Taekwondo student’s first encounter with Buddha’s philosophy.

So when I practice, teach or see Poomsae Keumgang I think of the “Diamond Cutter of Perfect Wisdom Sutra” (Keumgang Banyabalamil Kyeong), aka Diamond Sutra (Keumgang Kyeong), which is the philosophy of Poomsae Keumgang.

Several years back I participated in recitation of the Diamond Sutra at Haein-sa (Buddhist Temple) located in Hapcheon-gun, Gyeongsangnamdo. Haein-sa is where the Tripitaka Koreana (Koryo Tripitaka), or, Balma Taejangkyeong is stored, which is 81,258 wooden blocks engraved on both sides with Buddhist sutras, preserved in a special aerated building called “Jangkyeonggak” which is a UNESCO world heritage site. Staying there, participating in this amazing ancient event, while next door was the Diamond Sutra within the world's most complete and oldest intact version of Buddhist canon in the Hanja script was surreal, profound. I have an actual ink print from the original Diamond Sutra block at Haein-sa hanging in my office.

The hakdari keumgang-makki pose in Poomsae Keumgang is from the Buddhist Keumgang Yuksa guardian I have seen at Buddhist temples throughout Korea (& found in Japan). This guardian represents the idea that we should always be on guard (right awareness) at the door of the mind, defending it from ignorance.

Within the Diamond Sutra, the Buddha is having a discussion with a disciple prodding him to examine the ignorance of his narrow and preconceived notions about the nature of reality and enlightenment, guiding his disciple toward identifying ignorance, destroying it and finding the truth.

From this same set of Sutras, Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, generally holds a sword or a diamond/jewel in one hand and the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra in the other. This statement is that “the sharp sword (diamond, or a sutra) of wisdom cuts through the most solid ignorance” The Sutra in Manjushri’s hand is like the sword, but in the form of Kong-ahn (Koan) recitation.

 

[Gnarlie]

Thanks Mastercole.

I've not looked at the spiritual / symbolic meanings of the Yudanja poomsae in much depth, beyond what usually gets quoted in TKD texts. I've just now read an english translation of the Diamond Sutra. Some interesting notions about the transitory nature of things and detachment from self, but it's challenging for me to see any link between those points and the motions of Keumgang Poomsae, unless it's about things not being what they seem / are called. Nonetheless, it was a pleasure to read, so thank you fo introducing me to it.

The reason I'm looking at the Poomsae from an applications perspective is to try and draw out more practical self defence from a set of patterns that are largely unexplained beyond simple striking arrangements and spiritual symbolism. I appreciate the spiritual aspect of the art as much as the next man, but right now I'm aiming to recover / restore some of the meaning to these movements that has either been lost in translation or lost in history.

I can appreciate that the motion in Keumgang Poomsae may be based on Keumgang Yuksa, but the motion must have existed for a reason in the first place, and that's what I'm trying to establish here. In fact, I'd go further than that, and say that even if I can't find the original purpose, I want to create a new practical purpose for the movement that suits my abilities.

I understand that sparring was originally intended as a way to apply the techniques learned via the Poomsae, which were and are the backbone of the martial art. Modern WTF sport sparring does not offer me personally enough in terms of self defence, and is in my view lacking when compared to the wealth of techniques contained within the poomsae.

Even when one-step style sparring is used, it's not always clear in what way many of the movements from Poomsae are intended to be employed - which is why I'm digging back through Shotokan / Wado / Okinawan Karate Kata and supporting bunkai materials trying to find the intended purposes of / practical purposes for these movements.

 

[mastercole]

Thanks Mastercole.

I've not looked at the spiritual / symbolic meanings of the Yudanja poomsae in much depth, beyond what usually gets quoted in TKD texts.

Neither had I. But all it took was one catch phrase to spark my interest and cause me to research deeper. Take Keumgang for example, "what can break off every agony of the mind with the combination of wisdom and virtue is called "Keumgang." Now I think of how that sentence changed my life.

I've just now read an english translation of the Diamond Sutra. Some interesting notions about the transitory nature of things and detachment from self, but it's challenging for me to see any link between those points and the motions of Keumgang Poomsae, unless it's about things not being what they seem / are called.

It is challenging to attempt detachment from the self, much more challenging and beneficial than finding the meaning behind the moves. Example: Quick sharp movements/sudden enlightenment-sudden practice. Steady slow movements/sudden enlightenment-gradual practice, both being a debate within Zen. Palm strikes - A Zen priest who would smack a student in an attempt to trigger satori. 14 sitting stances in Keumgang - representing the stability of the sitting Zazen posture that Buddha took under the Bodhi tree, the immovable spot (bumispasha), also the idea of the largest mountain in Korea, something seemingly immovable (immovable meaning; I will find the truth and not be turned away). The rotation of the body 360 degrees, counter clockwise, then clockwise - representation of the Buddhist swastika's counter clockwise and clockwise rotation. Stomping the ground while making the santul-makki mountain block, again, demanding one's ground, that one will not be moved by delusion and ignorance.

Nonetheless, it was a pleasure to read, so thank you fo introducing me to it.

Actually, for you the Poomsae Keumgang has served 100% of it's purpose, you may or may not realize that. It has introduced you to this idea, which is all it intended to do. Of course I expanded a little about this idea from my own research, which is all it intended me to do. If this discovery changes your life, in 10 or 20 years, get back to me and let me know, if I am still alive, or let one of my students know, if not.

The reason I'm looking at the Poomsae from an applications perspective is to try and draw out more practical self defence from a set of patterns that are largely unexplained beyond simple striking arrangements and spiritual symbolism.

There is nothing simple about what Keumgang represents in a spiritual sense. Maybe Keumgang is telling us that the search for self defense fighting skills in Poomsae is a delusional trap in a cycle of suffering handed down from suffering being to suffering being and in order to break that bond of suffering we must sit, maybe up to 14 times and think about it?

I appreciate the spiritual aspect of the art as much as the next man, but right now I'm aiming to recover / restore some of the meaning to these movements that has either been lost in translation or lost in history.

This might be interesting research, if done well. We generally know where Taekwondo got these motions. It is simple, just to go those martial arts and study their theory.

I can appreciate that the motion in Keumgang Poomsae may be based on Keumgang Yuksa, but the motion must have existed for a reason in the first place, and that's what I'm trying to establish here.

At this point, I figure all we can do is guess, if that's our thing. In one of the old stone statues relief sculptures I saw of a Keumgang Warrior, you could see that his hands had a hollow opening, like where a staff would fit, maybe he was holding a staff or halberd?

In fact, I'd go further than that, and say that even if I can't find the original purpose, I want to create a new practical purpose for the movement that suits my abilities.

I guess, it depends on what one thinks adds more value to their life, or to the lives of others, via martial arts.

I understand that sparring was originally intended as a way to apply the techniques learned via the Poomsae, which were and are the backbone of the martial art.

For me, Poomsae is not the backbone of Taekwondo, or Karate. In technical terms, I think forms are a catalog of mostly inapplicable and failed theories. Of course, *some* technique are applicable and those can be seen in today's modern fighting styles.

Modern WTF sport sparring does not offer me personally enough in terms of self defence, and is in my view lacking when compared to the wealth of techniques contained within the poomsae.

You must have explored WTF Olympic Sparring Training Methods very deeply? Everyone's self defense needs are different. If someone has serious self defense needs, there is no martial art that can offer enough to fill those needs. The right kind of martial art, can only fill a part of that need, and that needs to be a martial art that uses full force/full contact as part of it's training - that is the value of modern WTF sparring training methods, please read these translations of Chong Woo Lee's comments on this subject: http://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=sets He is one of the chief architects of Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Taekwondo sparring). Most people have never seen these before.

Street smarts, powerful negotiation and decision making skills, killer instincts, legal understanding of self defense law, use of weapons, access to weapons, your morals, etc, have more to do with self defense.

Even when one-step style sparring is used, it's not always clear in what way many of the movements from Poomsae are intended to be employed - which is why I'm digging back through Shotokan / Wado / Okinawan Karate Kata and supporting bunkai materials trying to find the intended purposes of / practical purposes for these movements.

I don't believe there are many practical purposes for Kata techniques to be found in any martial arts, just fanciful and theoretical one based on speculation, which is exactly what that masters of old were doing when they developed the empty hand kata. I think if you go back to kubudo, or weapons martial arts, you will find much more applications, but those will be mostly weapons based applications, which was their original intention.

 

[puunui]

Everyone's self defense needs are different. If someone has serious self defense needs, there is no martial art that can offer enough to fill those needs. The right kind of martial art, can only fill a part of that need, and that needs to be a martial art that uses full force/full contact as part of it's training - that is the value of modern WTF sparring training methods, please read these translations of Chong Woo Lee's comments on this subject: http://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=sets He is one of the chief architects of Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Taekwondo sparring). Most people have never seen these before. Street smarts, powerful negotiation and decision making skills, killer instincts, legal understanding of self defense law, use of weapons, access to weapons, your morals, etc, have more to do with self defense.

You hear about self defense less and less as the reason why people sign up for a martial arts class. In fact, I can't remember when someone said their primary concern was to defend themselves. I ask my martial arts instructor friends and they say the same thing. If pushed, parents will say "self defense is nice", but that isn't the primary reason for signing their kids up. They are looking towards the other benefits of martial arts training for their kids. The martial arts market is simply not looking for self defense anymore.

 

[Cyriacus]

You hear about self defense less and less as the reason why people sign up for a martial arts class. In fact, I can't remember when someone said their primary concern was to defend themselves. I ask my martial arts instructor friends and they say the same thing. If pushed, parents will say "self defense is nice", but that isn't the primary reason for signing their kids up. They are looking towards the other benefits of martial arts training for their kids. The martial arts market is simply not looking for self defense anymore.

Ive seen the exact opposite effect, around here.

Im not contradicting You, mind. Its just interesting to see how different things can be in different places.

 

[puunui]

Ive seen the exact opposite effect, around here.

Im not contradicting You, mind. Its just interesting to see how different things can be in different places.

ok

 

[andyjeffries]

to give one explanation from a kukki taekwondo perspective, the second photo reminds me of what steven lopez does, which we labeled "surfing" back in the 90s. He is standing sideways, with his front leg bent, which blocks or covers the front side of his body from attacks, specifically roundhouse kicks to the front side. His back side is covered by his front arm in a down block position. His rear arm is raised to cover his face on both sides.

The movement after this one, to me can be interpreted as what we call a trap back kick, meaning he takes a step forward, and does a back kick (not shown in the poomsae) and failing that, he positions his rear hand in what people call a short punch, but can actually be a cover or down block, with the front hand positioned to punch. This plays the percentages because if he missed with his trap back kick, then the natural and most common counter from is opponent would be a roundhouse kick to his stomach, to which he is perfectly positioned to counter, with a front hand cover punch. If there is no counter roundhouse kick, then instead of doing a front hand cover punch, he can instead to a rear leg roundhouse kick follow up.

This was very thought provoking. I certainly hadn't thought of Keumgang in those terms, so thank you very much for triggering this idea.