Ankoh Itosu

[chinto01]

Yesterday I was talking to a friend of mine about the pinan katas. During the conversation he mentioned that he did not focus on the forms because they were to "simple" for him. When I pursued his comment further he began to tell me how Itosu ruined karate by introducing it into the Okinawan school system and that he was not a big supporter of him. This is not the first time i have heard this comment. This is also not the first time that I have heard someone "bad mouth" Itosu Sensei. So my question is what do people think. Did Itosu make a mistake in introducing kara te to the Okinawan school sysytem and should he be looked down upon for it?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[CuongNhuka]

I love the Pinan Katas. And how is the fifth Pinan Kata is "simple". I've been doing it for the better part of a year and I still screw up the ending move when you jump. It could just be the we use crazy coung nhuka (joke) do things. I like the the set all-in-all. And I thought that Karate was Okinowan. I could just be wrong, but what ever.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[BlackCatBonz]

ive only been doing the pinan kata for about 7 years......and i am still coming up with bunkai from the first 2 movements.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Yesterday I was talking to a friend of mine about the pinan katas. During the conversation he mentioned that he did not focus on the forms because they were to "simple" for him. When I pursued his comment further he began to tell me how Itosu ruined karate by introducing it into the Okinawan school system and that he was not a big supporter of him. This is not the first time i have heard this comment. This is also not the first time that I have heard someone "bad mouth" Itosu Sensei. So my question is what do people think. Did Itosu make a mistake in introducing kara te to the Okinawan school sysytem and should he be looked down upon for it?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

Hi Rob,

It all depends on how you look at it. Itosu broke the secrecy mold when he began teaching karate to the school children of Okinawa. They were being taught so that they would be strong and candidates for the Japanese military. It is said that he either A) came up with the Pinan katas specifically for them or B) he broke a Pina kata down into five distinct kata for simplification. What is agreed upon is the he deleted the dangerous moves from the kata.

Here is the interesting question: Did he delete dangerous moves from the kata itself or did he delete dangerous applications of the moves, that is to say, when he taught the bunkai he deliberately taught simplified applications? I personally believe the latter as many of the other kata have the same moves contained in the Pinan kata.

My opinion is that Itosu shouldn't be looked down upon as karate finally came out from the veil of secrecy by his action. The bunkai was lost for many a year but throught the effores of Master George Dillman in the USA and senseis such as Geoff Thompson and Iain Abernethy in the UK, the bunkai are being rediscovered. So, in the long run, no harm - no foul.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Makalakumu]

I would like to see all of the parent forms that the pinan katas came from. I know a few of them, but not all. I suspect, from what I know, that dangerous bunkai for the techniques in the kata were not taught. I've practiced some techniques from those katas that would cause death...aka neck breaks...so I know that the information is there...at least some of it.

 

[chinto01]

Here is the interesting question: Did he delete dangerous moves from the kata itself or did he delete dangerous applications of the moves, that is to say, when he taught the bunkai he deliberately taught simplified applications? I personally believe the latter as many of the other kata have the same moves contained in the Pinan kata.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan thanks for your response. I would agree with you in that I believe he taught simplified applications to the students in the school system. I also believe however that he taught the more advanced or dangerous applications to his senior students. In your post you mention that Abernethy Sensei and Mr. Dillman have been active in active in rediscovering some of the bunkai to these forms. I am familiar with Abernethy Sensei's work I however am not familiar with Mr. Dillmans. Please elaborate.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Andrew Green]

Has Tae Bo weakened Muay Thai?

Itosu created something many more people wanted to do, and did it in a way that appealed to them. If someone wants something a little rougher there are still choices available for them.

If Itosu hadn't followed that path, and Funakoshi continued it, there's a good most westerners would have never even heard of karate.

The "It used to be better" thing is a defensive thing for those that are affraid what they are doing isn't all that effective. Rather then do the work to make it effective they make excuses that it is "someone elses fault"

If what you are learning doesn't do what you want to do, find something else or make it do what you want to do, don't blame those that ARE doing and teaching what they want.

It's like getting some Billy Blanks tapes, then complaining about how he ruined kickboxing cause those that do Tae Bo are really poor ring fighters.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i tend to think some people get confused about bunkai, and all the pressure point nonsense and deadly techniques. the simple fact is, you have a movement or series of movements that is applicable to almost any defensive or offensive application.
the key to discovering it is in applying that same movement to any situation and not overlooking the seemingly discrete movements.
some people look at gedan barai and see a downblock......that is the fault of the teacher, plain and simple.
i look at gedan barai and think, pure genius.

 

[searcher]

Wow, I have to say that the responses so far have been fabulous. I take the look at this from the perspective of, had Itosu not broken karate out into the mainstream we would not be having this discussion. He was one of the few that was willing to break tradition and let everyone share in the wonderful art that he studied. So what if he "watered down" some of the forms in his creation of the pinan kata. To say that a punch today is any less lethal than it was before he started teaching school children is insane. We have retained the lethality of the techniques today that they had before. The only difference is how we all look at them, each perspective is varied. We all just have to do the best with what we have.

chinto1, if your friend is not liking what Itosu did tell him to stop training. Seems pretty simple to me. Thanks for letting me ramble.

 

[chinto01]

Thank you all for your replies on this post. Mr. Anderson I am still curious as to the work that Mr.Dillman has done with the pinan katas. The comment that my friend made was not the first time I have encountered this "resentment" towards Itosu Sensei for teaching the public. I believe that he saw the "bigger" picture and wanted the art preserved.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[MSUTKD]

Dillman is a JOKE! To have his name come up with Itosu is sad. Itosu Yasutsune knew what he was doing. He gave us modern martial arts.ron

 

[Martial Tucker]

Dillman is a JOKE! To have his name come up with Itosu is sad. Itosu Yasutsune knew what he was doing. He gave us modern martial arts.ron

Hey Now!!

Itosu never was resourceful enough to knock someone down with a "chi-ball", or to figure out the counter to a "chi-ball" is to wiggle your toes!

 

[chinto01]

Now let's not start bashing people on this thread please. That is no the intention that I had. I know Mr.Dillman's credentials are skeptical but Mr.Anderson had said that Mr.Dillman has done some work on the bunkai to the pinan forms and I am interested in hearing what it was. So let's see what he has to say. We will never get anywhere if we do not listen to eachother.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[DavidCC]

Hey Now!!

Itosu never was resourceful enough to knock someone down with a "chi-ball", or to figure out the counter to a "chi-ball" is to wiggle your toes!

Well, I guess we all know that it is pointless to think about targeting your strikes, or trying to develop new ideas from classic works. What a flake!


People forget that Dillman was a widely respected martial artist long before the nonsense that has smeared his reputation in the last ferw years. He was someone that Bruce Lee looked up to and learned from, for example. it seems to me the more "dangerous" or advanced applications from kata are mostly about targeting (not all, but many - joint manipulation is also another major area) And I believe it was his investigation of the old "bunkai" that led him to the pressure point techniques in the first place.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, he's done some very good things. I've gotten not just good bunkai from him but more importantly good ideas on how to see applications in the kata. He really opened my eyes; I was angry that other instructors hadn't told me this, though I believe they didn't know either.

But, he himself has smeared his own reputation. I have heard him--in person, in Indianapolis--speak about not just the no-touch and chi ball stuff but how men and women should strike using different sides of the body, unless they're homosexuals, in which case they should strike as though they were the opposite gender; what strike you use should depend on what color shirt you're wearing and what color shirt your opponent is wearing; making the right sound with a technique--with a choice of about 20 different sounds--greatly increases its effectiveness; toes up can defuse a pressure point technique; etc. He's doing it to himself.

 

[Martial Tucker]

People forget that Dillman was a widely respected martial artist long before the nonsense that has smeared his reputation in the last ferw years. He was someone that Bruce Lee looked up to and learned from, for example. it seems to me the more "dangerous" or advanced applications from kata are mostly about targeting (not all, but many - joint manipulation is also another major area) And I believe it was his investigation of the old "bunkai" that led him to the pressure point techniques in the first place.

Oh sure....I don't deny that he has made some positive contributions in the past, but I couldn't resist throwing a "jab" at him in light of his most recent
"work".

As for the more "dangerous or advanced" applications from kata, I think it's about both targeting and type of strike. Simple punches replacing eye gouges, throat strikes, etc...To me, that doesn't really limit the application of kata. I was taught to "think outside the box" when interpreting kata. Just because a specific type of strike is in a certain spot in kata, it doesn't mean it's your only option in a similar situation.

Targeting has always been a key concept in karate. Dillman certainly didn't create it. If you haven't read "Bubishi-The Bible of Karate", you have missed a lot in terms of traditional philosophy of empty hand combat. Targeting is as old as the art itself.