And just HOW is the war ON TERROR going?

[jazkiljok]

Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Worsens Terror Threat

By MARK MAZZETTI
Published: September 24, 2006
WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 — A stark assessment of terrorism trends by American intelligence agencies has found that the American invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks.

The classified National Intelligence Estimate attributes a more direct role to the Iraq war in fueling radicalism than that presented either in recent White House documents or in a report released Wednesday by the House Intelligence Committee, according to several officials in Washington involved in preparing the assessment or who have read the final document

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/w...&en=22b7a0941b08007f&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Hurting U.S. Terror Fight
By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, September 24, 2006; Page A01


The war in Iraq has become a primary recruitment vehicle for violent Islamic extremists, motivating a new generation of potential terrorists around the world whose numbers may be increasing faster than the United States and its allies can reduce the threat, U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/23/AR2006092301130.html

 

[michaeledward]

There was a time, not so long ago, when many of the supporters of the current military activities in the middle east would blame President Clinton for not launching military action against al Qaeda. As I recall, one of the untrue stories that circulated, was that President Clinton wouldn't interrupt his golf game to authorize an attack.

We don't hear from many of those people any more. Wonder why?

But, that's beside the point.

This morning, the New York Times relates a story that then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld issued a 'no go' order on an attack to kill or capture al Qaeda's number two man, Ayman al-Zawahiri. Apparently, our relationship with Pakistan was more important.

WASHINGTON, July 7 — A secret military operation in early 2005 to capture senior members of Al Qaeda in Pakistan’s tribal areas was aborted at the last minute after top Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan, according to intelligence and military officials.
The target was a meeting of Qaeda leaders that intelligence officials thought included Ayman al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden’s top deputy and the man believed to run the terrorist group’s operations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/washington/08intel.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

I suppose it is better to have a live, uncaptured enemy, than a dead or captured one, when promoting a war is necessary.

 

[jim777]

There were lots of raids in Pakistan that were supposed to have been on meeting places where Al-Zawahiri was present. He was never there, lots of innocents ended up dead each time, and nothing positive ever came of these raids. It doesn't surprise me at all that once they decided not to go, since they went so many other times with good intelligence and horrible results. I think we all know that the quality of intelligence over there is often as good as a guess. I think the point was that Clinton might have had a shot and didn't take it; Rumsfeld might have had 10 shots and took maybe 7 or 8. To say "they had a shot" or something is nonsense. It is and always will be a roll of the dice.
Don't take this as partisan though; I don't have any faith in Bush or his pack of loonies and had no faith whatsoever in Slick Willie either.

 

[MA-Caver]

To me the "War On Terror" is becoming like the "War On Drugs".

It's going to continue unless we do something about extremists doing stuff like this...

U.S. Muslims desecrate American flag
Video shows group on street corner declaring Islamic dominance
Posted: June 8, 2005
3:38 p.m. Eastern
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44664
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
A group of American Muslims produced a video that shows its members on a New York City street corner declaring Islam's dominance over America as they tread on a U.S. flag and then rip it apart.
In the video, released by the New York-based Islamic Thinkers Society, one of the Muslims is shown placing a sign on the flag that says, "Oh Muslims! Do you know your enemy? Isn't it obvious?"
The group, tied to the British jihadist organization Al-Muhajiroun, said the demonstration was "in response to the desecration of the holy Quran by the Crusaders & Zionists at Guantanamo Bay," an allegation based on a retracted Newsweek story.
The five-minute piece begins with a man speaking in clear English: "Just to show where our loyalty belongs to – you see this flag here? It's going to go on the floor [sic]. And to us, our loyalty does not belong to this flag, our loyalty belongs to Allah ... ."
The speaker then shifts to Arabic and members can be heard shouting the familiar "Allahu Akbar," or "Allah is greatest."
Later, after noting he has a legal permit for the demonstration, the speaker shouts, "You Muslims who are hiding in your houses, don't be afraid. Come and join us. Join us in the revival of all Islam. ... Join us to revive the Muslims from darkness into light."
Another speaker refers to the mandate for "Islam to dominate over all other religions, to dominate the world, even though the non-Muslims may hate it."

If they're legal fully sworn-in American citizens then I cannot begrudge them for expressing their opinion as per their rights under the Constitution & Bill of Rights. Neo-Nazis fly the Swastika flag along with the American flag and KKK groups fly the Rebel flag as well along-side with the American Flag... that is in a form desecration. Groups here have burned the flag and the Mexican Americans flown it upside down and beneath the Mexico national flag.
Still their message is Anti-American and with the current state of affairs and mind-sets of radical muslims everywhere this is encouraging dangerous thinking which usually leads to dangerous actions.
If they're not American citizens then definitely deport their sorry asses out of this country and bar them re-entry. The same thing is going on over in Britian
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56503 where Muslim radicals are shouting anti-British, anti-Queen/Sovereignty statements.
Are we really doing something here? Are we really making a difference in stopping Terrorism? Are we really trying everything possible to find & stop these leaders who sow hatred and teach martyrdom?
Again therein lies the problem. Like a hydra, cut off the head of the serpent and two more take it's place.

 

[jazkiljok]

To me the "War On Terror" is becoming like the "War On Drugs". ..

War on Drugs? ... so, how is that war going?

 

[michaeledward]

There were lots of raids in Pakistan that were supposed to have been on meeting places where Al-Zawahiri was present. He was never there, lots of innocents ended up dead each time, and nothing positive ever came of these raids. It doesn't surprise me at all that once they decided not to go, since they went so many other times with good intelligence and horrible results. I think we all know that the quality of intelligence over there is often as good as a guess. I think the point was that Clinton might have had a shot and didn't take it; Rumsfeld might have had 10 shots and took maybe 7 or 8. To say "they had a shot" or something is nonsense. It is and always will be a roll of the dice.
Don't take this as partisan though; I don't have any faith in Bush or his pack of loonies and had no faith whatsoever in Slick Willie either.

I don't recall 'lots of raids in Pakistan'. Don't recall that at all.

In fact, I think we are sending Pakistan billions of dollars to work as our ally in this 'war on terror'. They have captured some low and mid-level members of al Qaeda, and turned them over to the US (for immediate disappearance into the non-existant CIA programs).

But, I would like to see those 7 or 8 shots you talk of. Don't recall them at all.


EDIT - Did a quick search, and found that in 2004, the US Military was crossing the border into Pakistan. The reports do not describe any 'high-profile raids', but rather low-level sweeps. Results include aprhended people making (I'm not kidding on this) "bicycle bombs". They also talk of apprehending "8 militants". These operations sound an awful lot like what they did in Miami, and Buffalo. They do not describe attempts to take a shot at the #2 al Qaeda leader. -END EDIT

 

[jim777]

I don't recall 'lots of raids in Pakistan'. Don't recall that at all.

In fact, I think we are sending Pakistan billions of dollars to work as our ally in this 'war on terror'. They have captured some low and mid-level members of al Qaeda, and turned them over to the US (for immediate disappearance into the non-existant CIA programs).

But, I would like to see those 7 or 8 shots you talk of. Don't recall them at all.


EDIT - Did a quick search, and found that in 2004, the US Military was crossing the border into Pakistan. The reports do not describe any 'high-profile raids', but rather low-level sweeps. Results include aprhended people making (I'm not kidding on this) "bicycle bombs". They also talk of apprehending "8 militants". These operations sound an awful lot like what they did in Miami, and Buffalo. They do not describe attempts to take a shot at the #2 al Qaeda leader. -END EDIT

You know, I've just read a few of your other posts and didn't realize you were so blatantly partisan. That was totally my mistake. Had I known, I would have ignored your post altogether. So, I'm out of this thread, no offense intended, but here's two raids which went badly from the first page of google results I brought up.

January, 2006
http://ginacobb.typepad.com/gina_cobb/2006/01/an.html

November, 2006
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstr...nce/Times Topics/People/Z/Zawahiri, Ayman Al-


jim

 

[michaeledward]

You know, I've just read a few of your other posts and didn't realize you were so blatantly partisan. That was totally my mistake. Had I known, I would have ignored your post altogether. So, I'm out of this thread, no offense intended, but here's two raids which went badly from the first page of google results I brought up.

January, 2006
http://ginacobb.typepad.com/gina_cobb/2006/01/an.html

November, 2006
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstr...nce/Times Topics/People/Z/Zawahiri, Ayman Al-


jim

Jim,

It is always easier to attack the questioner, rather than address the question. Whether I am a 'blatant partisan' or not, is hardly relevant to the question. And its a nice way to start off a conversation, too.

The first link posts to an opinion page. Something I give as much credence as you should give me. After all, I (and you, and Gina Cobb) am just a knucklehead with a keyboard. When I tried to follow a news link from Ms. Cobb's site, my IE windows errored out and closed down.

The second link, requires payment, but the teaser doesn't seem to indicate American military involvment.

So, if you have a few more google links you would like to use, please, show me evidence that the US Military has taken shots at al Qaeda leadership in Pakistan. I'd like to see the evidence. Even I would give Mr. Rumsfeld some operational authority of a single mission, if others had taken place. I mean, despite all the other items he has ****ed up. You know the whole 'democracy is messy' type thing.

Or, you can depart this thread, into silence.

Michael

 

[michaeledward]

I've done a bit more poking about.

It seems there were some 'hot pursuit' discussions early in the campaign in Afghanistan (e.g. 2002 / 2003). Many of the articles quote Pakistani tribal leaders saying they will not allow United States military to operate in their tribal areas.

I did find this article that seems to make it clear that Pakistan is not very pleased with the idea of United States operations in their country.

It is not the job of generals to make decisions. The decisions are taken at political level and commanders cannot take decisions," Pakistan Foreign Office spokesperson Tasnim Aslam said.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/pakistan/2007/pakistan-070304-irna01.htm

I'm still listening. But, I expect more personal attacks.



EDIT - News reports have just recently broke that the Pakistani government has launched a mission to take back the besieged mosque. Reports state the mosque held approximately 100 militants and several hundred hostages. Initial reports show relatively minor loss of life (perhaps 35 - 40 militants and military). My hopes remain high that the initial reports will be the final reports; and that most walk away safely from this crisis. - END EDIT

 

[Empty Hands]

...show me evidence that the US Military has taken shots at al Qaeda leadership in Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7847008/
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSISL13654620070619?pageNumber=1
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/13/alqaeda.strike/index.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/05/news/pakistan.php
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114571,00.html

Not that I approve of the cluster**** that the Bush Admin. has perpetrated.

 

[michaeledward]

Thank you Empty Hands

...raising the possibility that al Qaeda fighters might have also been present
...not known whether any leading Taliban or al Qaeda figures were targeted
...has been no confirmation that al-Zawahiri was killed in the attack ( from 1/2006 - apparently not as tapes continue to be released in 2007)
...Intelligence officials suggest it may be Ayman al-Zawahri (search) — the Al Qaeda No. 2 leader (from 3/2004 - again apparently not, because they missed him in 2006)

There is no reason to believe the Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld would have been any more accurate when he did not issue the order in 2005 as he was in these other attempts you mention. And, I don't even necessarily disagree with Rumsfeld's decision. But, I brought it up because of the irony among the wingnuts who made the argument that 'Clinton didn't take the shot'.

There are raids in Pakistan. Thank you.

I will continue to note that the United States Government has gifted Pakistan and President Musharraf some ten billion dollars of the past six years, to aid with our fight against terrorism.

Part of that partnership, is to keep United States military from acting in Pakistani soil. This is important and necessary to prevent or reduce the possibility of, a coup against Musharraf.




Now, let us turn to CNN. - Al Qaeda is growing in strength.
MSNBC - Al Qaeda's resurgence.
NPR - Al Qaeda has rebuilt
Homeland Security Director Chertoff - 'Gut Check', 'Summer'.

Two things come to mind, amid the beating of the drums.

A - Nexis of Politics and Terror (See Olbermann). Some bad political things must be happening in the Bush Administration (See Sara Taylor).

B - Aren't we "fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here"? Is that the last rational for the War in Iraq I hear shattering. They are apparently going to follow us home, even if we don't leave. So why are our soldiers dieing in Iraq?