An interesting take on "sticky hands."

[Juany118]

Its a long video, and when the seminar gets to actual application it is teaching based on various FMA styles BUT I that the following time hacks showed what I have been taught, that there are some obvious similarities between Kali and WC, at least the TWC I study. Now this isn't to say that hubud is identical to chi sau, only that there are some shared elements to that and the arts in general (the importance of footwork, centerline, the blind side etc.) For those that don't want to watch the entire video here are some time hacks to give you an idea.

intro to 4:42

5:15 to 5:50

8:15 to 9:10

10:38 to 13:15

16:20 to 16:55

17:20 to 18:12

So what do you guys think? Is he right "they are the same, but different..."?

 

[Juany118]

As an aside, he also knows WC and so he does show, in one of the clips, chi sau, to illustrate the similarities

 

[Martial D]

Very cool seminar. I've actually used that throw a couple of times in actual fights, it's very practical.

As for the question, it's almost like an anti sticky hands serving the same basic function. I could see how it would compliment WC style trapping nicely though when contact breaks.

 

[Juany118]

Very cool seminar. I've actually used that throw a couple of times in actual fights, it's very practical.

As for the question, it's almost like an anti sticky hands serving the same basic function. I could see how it would compliment WC style trapping nicely though when contact breaks.

Yeah, if I get the time off, and have some spare cash I actually want to go and take one of his seminars one day.

As you say though, my school teaches WC and Kali, in parallel and the idea that they are different, but serve similar functions, is what I have been taught. Seeing the same idea expressed elsewhere was nice because I know a school like mine (that specifically makes connections between two different arts in the same class/seminar) appears to be uncommon.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah, if I get the time off, and have some spare cash I actually want to go and take one of his seminars one day.

As you say though, my school teaches WC and Kali, in parallel and the idea that they are different, but serve similar functions, is what I have been taught. Seeing the same idea expressed elsewhere was nice because I know a school like mine (that specifically makes connections between two different arts in the same class/seminar) appears to be uncommon.

My sifu also was a student of fma(Arnis). I wish I would have learned more of it. All I remember is the 12 zone striking pattern and some other basics.

 

[geezer]

Good clip. I don't have time at the moment to watch the whole thing at the moment, but will later. For now, I can say that there are definitely some similarities between hubad and chi-sau, and I sometimes show these to my students. On the other hand, there are some significant differences too.

A lot of hubad seems confusingly indirect from a WC perspective... and can seem like "chasing hands". On the other hand these same drills make a lot more sense if you factor in that FMA is a weapons-based system!

 

[Juany118]

Good clip. I don't have time at the moment to watch the whole thing at the moment, but will later. For now, I can say that there are definitely some similarities between hubad and chi-sau, and I sometimes show these to my students. On the other hand, there are some significant differences too.

A lot of hubad seems confusingly indirect from a WC perspective... and can seem like "chasing hands". On the other hand these same drills make a lot more sense if you factor in that FMA is a weapons-based system!

It's the last part that I think is important. The "seems" point is also important. Trains are different though.

Hence you have to cover/shield as weapons add reach, increase angles, and so a seemingly indirect attack with the empty hand is direct with a weapon. So it seems to chase hands but that isn't the purpose. Since FMA is a weapon based art they don't want you to be confused, having to mentally switch between empty and open hand. Internal consistency means a great deal in a system.

 

[KPM]

The other factor to consider is that FMA puts more emphasis on actually controlling the opponent's limb during Hubud than people do in Chi Sau....again....because the assumption is that the limb is likely holding a weapon, even if "only" a knife! This is why most of the time when Wing Chun people show some kind of "defense against a knife attack", it would get them killed in reality! Wing Chun reflex is to clear an obstacle and go straight in as directly as possible. But clearing a knife out of the way just doesn't work. If the limb holding the knife isn't under complete control, then the knife is still cutting! FMA reflex is to control the limb and gain a superior position on the way to striking....or locking, etc. This is a significant tactical difference that shows up when looking at Hubud vs. Chi Sau. This is also why FMA empty-hands has a lot more joint-locking and other standing grappling moves than Wing Chun.

 

[Juany118]

The other factor to consider is that FMA puts more emphasis on actually controlling the opponent's limb during Hubud than people do in Chi Sau....again....because the assumption is that the limb is likely holding a weapon, even if "only" a knife! This is why most of the time when Wing Chun people show some kind of "defense against a knife attack", it would get them killed in reality! Wing Chun reflex is to clear an obstacle and go straight in as directly as possible. But clearing a knife out of the way just doesn't work. If the limb holding the knife isn't under complete control, then the knife is still cutting! FMA reflex is to control the limb and gain a superior position on the way to striking....or locking, etc. This is a significant tactical difference that shows up when looking at Hubud vs. Chi Sau. This is also why FMA empty-hands has a lot more joint-locking and other standing grappling moves than Wing Chun.

Yeah, I have always felt that one weakness in WC is how it deals with unarmed vs armed. As you say simply clearing doesn't work because of the added angles of attack a blade gives. Someone might say that if you are fast enough you can continue to defend against it, and avoid being stabbed, as you strike but that misses a key component in FMA, "defang the snake".

Limb destruction is very much a part of FMA, and I think it can be argued that trying to "clear"/trap that blade at all (in the most typical WC ways) isn't just leaving to vulnerable to a belly slash, like Ron shows at one point, but is essentially giving the knife wielding opponent one of their prime targets. This isn't only an issue with WC though. I remember working knife defense with my Brother in Law who is a second dan in TKD. Initially he kept reacting as if I was going to keep going for the body and the first few times he was surprised that I wasn't doing that but was taking the opportunity to attack his limbs.

Don't get me wrong WC techniques do work in this scenario I just think it just takes a switch in mindset from attacking the knife wielder to, essentially, attacking the knife until you have disarmed the wielder. Then you attack the knife wielder, and pray they aren't a true "knife nut". If they are they likely have at least on other weapon on their person.