American Jobs

[punisher73]

John Smith started the day early having set his alarmclock
(MADE IN JAPAN )
for 6 am ..
While his coffeepot
(MADE IN CHINA)
was perking, he shaved with his electric razor
(MADE IN HONG KONG)
He put on a dress shirt
(MADE IN SRI LANKA),
designer jeans
(MADE IN SINGAPORE)
and tennis shoes
(MADE IN KOREA)
After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet
(MADE IN INDIA)
he sat down with his calculator
(MADE IN MEXICO)
to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch
(MADE IN TAIWAN )
to the radio
(MADE IN INDIA )
he got in his car
(MADE IN GERMANY )
filled it with GAS
(from Saudi Arabia )
and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.
At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his computer
( made in MALAYSIA ),
John decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals
(MADE IN BRAZIL ),
poured himself a glass of wine
(MADE IN FRANCE )
and turned on his TV
(MADE IN INDONESIA ),
and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA

 

[granfire]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320222

Anecdotal, but seems to contradict the OP.

 

[punisher73]

The last study I heard for Michigan that they talked about at our school (technical training/vocational education for juniors and seniors in high school) said that there are more job openings in Michigan than people unemployed. The problem that they were running into was that it used to be you could get a job with one of the big 3 car companies and make a very good living without any further training than high school. The jobs out there now are requiring more schooling and technical training.

One of the local employers runs a big garage setting. Their lowest paid job is $8 and hour for washing the vehicles and moving them. They require at least an associate degree. Their response was that "they could" because they had so many applicants that it allowed them to filter through them quickly to find a good fit.

I think the OP (even though I started it for though) is both right and wrong at the same time. The US is vastly loosing out on manufacturing jobs that can be done very cheaply elsewhere. We (as a collective whole) need to get more skills and education for our work force to have better technical training and job skills to compete in other areas.

 

[granfire]

I think the OP (even though I started it for though) is both right and wrong at the same time. The US is vastly loosing out on manufacturing jobs that can be done very cheaply elsewhere. We (as a collective whole) need to get more skills and education for our work force to have better technical training and job skills to compete in other areas.

That I agree with.
The US went from over protecting it's market to just destroying it. A closed market is bad for the consumer. Your choices are limited and quality seems to suffer. But the all open market does not seem o work well either.

And naturally the educational angle...
On the one hand you can't get a job without at least high school diploma, on the other hand it's being dumbed down so badly that it loses any meaning.

 

[jks9199]

The last study I heard for Michigan that they talked about at our school (technical training/vocational education for juniors and seniors in high school) said that there are more job openings in Michigan than people unemployed. The problem that they were running into was that it used to be you could get a job with one of the big 3 car companies and make a very good living without any further training than high school. The jobs out there now are requiring more schooling and technical training.

One of the local employers runs a big garage setting. Their lowest paid job is $8 and hour for washing the vehicles and moving them. They require at least an associate degree. Their response was that "they could" because they had so many applicants that it allowed them to filter through them quickly to find a good fit.

I think the OP (even though I started it for though) is both right and wrong at the same time. The US is vastly loosing out on manufacturing jobs that can be done very cheaply elsewhere. We (as a collective whole) need to get more skills and education for our work force to have better technical training and job skills to compete in other areas.

It used to be that you could learn enough of the basics to be a car mechanic in a few semesters in high school, get a job in a shop, and learn more through experience and certification classes. It's not that easy anymore; cars have gotten a lot more complicated and less is solved by tweaking a setting by feel now. More basic training is required to get in the door.

But then we don't define an automotive technician or even a heavy equipment operator as a "skilled" job. We look down at a lot of blue collar work, and many parents would be apoplectic if their child came in and said "I don't want to go to college; I want to be a mechanic/plumber/carpenter...", let alone if a teacher suggested that their child might be better suited to a trade then college. We (as a society) have forgotten how much knowledge and work goes into those trades. And we've decided that we're too good for the simple grunt work of lawn care, ditch digging, and even basic assembly line jobs.

If we want to rebuild our economy and manufacturing infrastructure, we have to relearn and respect the dignity of basic labor.

 

[CanuckMA]

Some of the educational requirements can be linked to the original FTA.

First was an effort to create a Canada-US framework for freer flow of goods and workers. After all, here were 2 nations highly co-dependent on each other with economies that are closely matched.

Then insular politics took hold, and the free movement of workers was restricted to certain categories, and to persons holding a post secondary degree in the relevant discipline.

Corporations then looked to be still able to draw on the larger pool for contract employees. All of a sudden, most positions required a post secondary degree in order to have a chance of qualifying for the FTA.

 

[Sukerkin]

We look down at a lot of blue collar work, and many parents would be apoplectic if their child came in and said "I don't want to go to college; I want to be a mechanic/plumber/carpenter...", let alone if a teacher suggested that their child might be better suited to a trade then college.

A bit off topic but I had the reverse problem when I was of that age. I had a heck of a fight with my dad to be allowed to go to university. He wanted me to go an apprentice in a trade and have a 'proper' job. As is often the case when we think we know better than our parents when we're young, oh how I wish I had listened to him back then. I'd be quite comfortably off rather than having pride in my academic achievements but earning a good deal less than a busy plumber or sparky is making these days .

 

[granfire]

A bit off topic but I had the reverse problem when I was of that age. I had a heck of a fight with my dad to be allowed to go to university. He wanted me to go an apprentice in a trade and have a 'proper' job. As is often the case when we think we know better than our parents when we're young, oh how I wish I had listened to him back then. I'd be quite comfortably off rather than having pride in my academic achievements but earning a good deal less than a busy plumber or sparky is making these days .

Ah, yes, trade the reputation for a pay check...There is much more money in trades than in academics these days (and it's been that way for a long time actually...)

I just wish I had not been so girly and taken up electrics instead of hortuculture....can't get a decent paying job as gardener...but hey, try to find a reliable electrician!

 

[jks9199]

Ah, yes, trade the reputation for a pay check...There is much more money in trades than in academics these days (and it's been that way for a long time actually...)

I just wish I had not been so girly and taken up electrics instead of hortuculture....can't get a decent paying job as gardener...but hey, try to find a reliable electrician!

Until recently, academia wasn't a route to riches...

The professions (medicine, law, engineering, especially) were. In short, "white collar" jobs. Hence the push for college... Like I said, somewhere we as a society decided that there was something demeaning about actually working with your hands for your money.

The trades were always a good, reliable income. That's gone down a bit due to illegal workers. I know general contractors who simply are underbid because they don't use illegal workers, so they charge a bit more than the guy who's labor costs are $50 or $75 a day. When they actually pay what was promised.

Side note: We also somewhere decided that you were supposed to love your job and be deliriously happy about going to work. Uh, no. Some jobs and careers do indeed make you happy and answer those needs. Others? They pay the bills so you can do what you love.

 

[granfire]

Well, you should not dread having to go to work.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't pretend to have the answers here. Maybe I don't even know all the questions.

But I notice that depending on who you talk to, the problem is either...

A) It's all the American consumer's fault. If we just insisted on buying American, American manufacturers would make things in America, put Americans back to work, and we'd all be better off for it.

B) It's all the evil corporation's fault. If they just didn't export jobs overseas to the lowest bidder sweat shops, we'd still have things being made in America.

C) It's all the government's fault. If they just put high import duties and tariffs on imported goods and services, if they would just control the flow of illegal aliens, we'd have goods and services made in America and by Americans.

I don't know whose fault it is. I'll tell you this; if I can buy a car for $500 on eBay and it runs great for several years, I DO NOT CARE if it was built in Japan or in the USA. If the USA cannot build a car that lasts as long as a Japanese car, that IS NOT MY FAULT and I refuse to be punished for it, so that they can make crappy cars with me as a captive market. Compete or frickin' die, bub. If the unions are sucking the car companies dry, then heave them overboard. I don't care if a guy with a high school diploma can't buy a second home with the money he earns putting fenders on Chryslers. It's not my fault; I should pay the freight for that way of life for somebody else because I'm a loyal American? It's more like saying "Be a loyal American; settle for second-best and pay more for it because you're an idiot." How about no?

Besides, I can't please anyone anyway. If my car was built in the USA, it was built with foreign parts. If it was built in the USA, the money is going back to a Japanese car company instead of a US car company. Nobody thinks anyone else is patriotic enough. So screw it. I buy what I buy. I do what I do. I went to high school, I served my country and my community, I paid for college in my late 20's and am just finishing paying the student loans I ran up THIS YEAR at age 50. Know what I owe the American worker? Jack, that's what. I owe nobody nothing. Period.

 

[hongkongfooey]

It used to be that you could learn enough of the basics to be a car mechanic in a few semesters in high school, get a job in a shop, and learn more through experience and certification classes. It's not that easy anymore; cars have gotten a lot more complicated and less is solved by tweaking a setting by feel now. More basic training is required to get in the door.

But then we don't define an automotive technician or even a heavy equipment operator as a "skilled" job. We look down at a lot of blue collar work, and many parents would be apoplectic if their child came in and said "I don't want to go to college; I want to be a mechanic/plumber/carpenter...", let alone if a teacher suggested that their child might be better suited to a trade then college. We (as a society) have forgotten how much knowledge and work goes into those trades. And we've decided that we're too good for the simple grunt work of lawn care, ditch digging, and even basic assembly line jobs.

If we want to rebuild our economy and manufacturing infrastructure, we have to relearn and respect the dignity of basic labor.

Yup. Many of those same people that look down on blue collar workers have a change of heart once their car needs repairs, their plumbing backs up, and their home needs fixing. At least for the short term. There is nothing wrong with doing dirty or hard work. Many Americans are too soft.

 

[punisher73]

I don't pretend to have the answers here. Maybe I don't even know all the questions.

But I notice that depending on who you talk to, the problem is either...

A) It's all the American consumer's fault. If we just insisted on buying American, American manufacturers would make things in America, put Americans back to work, and we'd all be better off for it.

B) It's all the evil corporation's fault. If they just didn't export jobs overseas to the lowest bidder sweat shops, we'd still have things being made in America.

C) It's all the government's fault. If they just put high import duties and tariffs on imported goods and services, if they would just control the flow of illegal aliens, we'd have goods and services made in America and by Americans.

I don't know whose fault it is. I'll tell you this; if I can buy a car for $500 on eBay and it runs great for several years, I DO NOT CARE if it was built in Japan or in the USA. If the USA cannot build a car that lasts as long as a Japanese car, that IS NOT MY FAULT and I refuse to be punished for it, so that they can make crappy cars with me as a captive market. Compete or frickin' die, bub. If the unions are sucking the car companies dry, then heave them overboard. I don't care if a guy with a high school diploma can't buy a second home with the money he earns putting fenders on Chryslers. It's not my fault; I should pay the freight for that way of life for somebody else because I'm a loyal American? It's more like saying "Be a loyal American; settle for second-best and pay more for it because you're an idiot." How about no?

Besides, I can't please anyone anyway. If my car was built in the USA, it was built with foreign parts. If it was built in the USA, the money is going back to a Japanese car company instead of a US car company. Nobody thinks anyone else is patriotic enough. So screw it. I buy what I buy. I do what I do. I went to high school, I served my country and my community, I paid for college in my late 20's and am just finishing paying the student loans I ran up THIS YEAR at age 50. Know what I owe the American worker? Jack, that's what. I owe nobody nothing. Period.

I agree with this. I don't think many people care where something is made as long as it is quality and they are getting their money's worth. If it happens to be an American product great, but as you pointed out there is alot of hypocrisy in the "buy American" agenda. For example, Harley-Davidson makes a big stink about them being all made in America by Americans (but still uses some foreign parts) and really markets that. Their merchandising, where they make most of their money? 99% made somwhere else.

I also don't think that there is a "single cause" to it. I think one factor is the problem between unions wanting more and more wages for non-technical skills and those same companies trying to get more and more investment capital so they have to increase their profits to the shareholders. If you need to make more money to get more money to expand, why pay $30 an hour with benefits when you can pay a worker in Mexico a FRACTION of that cost to make the same product? I'm not saying it's right/wrong, just the reality of it.

For example, growing up in my town the biggest employers were Post and Kellogg's cereal companies. Sometime back, Kellogg's closed one of their main buildings that made Corn Flakes and moved it to Mexico. It put hundreds of people out of work and was a big hit to the local economy, but they held hope because Kellogg's told them that it was only a temporary thing. Then the next thing you read in the papers was Kellogg's announcing that they were making record profits over their projected ones. To many people there, it was a big slap in the face and the plant is still in Mexico.

Talking with my dad, who worked pretty much from high school through retirement 40 years later(not counting his years of military service during the Vietnam era), that was what most people did in his generation. You knew that they were always hiring and everyone wanted to get a job there because you made really good money with no additional education or training. Also, talking with some other people I know, it was the same thing in their towns with auto plants. It was a good paying job right out of high school and you could spend all your time there until retirement. I think the days of those kinds of jobs are over and people need to understand that and start to figure out what career path they want and what skill trade the want to get training in.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For example, growing up in my town the biggest employers were Post and Kellogg's cereal companies. Sometime back, Kellogg's closed one of their main buildings that made Corn Flakes and moved it to Mexico. It put hundreds of people out of work and was a big hit to the local economy, but they held hope because Kellogg's told them that it was only a temporary thing. Then the next thing you read in the papers was Kellogg's announcing that they were making record profits over their projected ones. To many people there, it was a big slap in the face and the plant is still in Mexico.

And the other side of this coin; presume for a moment that Kellogg's had made a decision to stay in your town, because they had a responsibility to their workers rather than to profits. So they stay, and corporate profits are a bit lower, and prices go up, and price-conscious shoppers buy another brand instead, and the plant eventually closes because Kellogg's is now out of business.

So perhaps we get the government involved and they 'protect American jobs' by putting import duties and restrictions on American companies doing business in Mexico. And in return, Mexico does the same, and now we're not selling products in Mexico anymore because we're not competitive there any more than they are competitive here.

And then we're back to the consumer again, blaming them for not 'buying American' and so on.

Things change. I don't know how to stop that, or if stopping it is a good idea in general.

People used to be able to fix their own cars, now they're too complex to work on. Absolutely true. And when we got into accidents, they hosed our bodies off the dashboards. Now we routinely walk away from accidents that would have been horrible and completely fatal without a scratch. So we should go back to '57 Buicks because we can change our own oil again? Hmmm.

 

[punisher73]

And the other side of this coin; presume for a moment that Kellogg's had made a decision to stay in your town, because they had a responsibility to their workers rather than to profits. So they stay, and corporate profits are a bit lower, and prices go up, and price-conscious shoppers buy another brand instead, and the plant eventually closes because Kellogg's is now out of business.

So perhaps we get the government involved and they 'protect American jobs' by putting import duties and restrictions on American companies doing business in Mexico. And in return, Mexico does the same, and now we're not selling products in Mexico anymore because we're not competitive there any more than they are competitive here.

And then we're back to the consumer again, blaming them for not 'buying American' and so on.

Things change. I don't know how to stop that, or if stopping it is a good idea in general.

People used to be able to fix their own cars, now they're too complex to work on. Absolutely true. And when we got into accidents, they hosed our bodies off the dashboards. Now we routinely walk away from accidents that would have been horrible and completely fatal without a scratch. So we should go back to '57 Buicks because we can change our own oil again? Hmmm.

Yep, I think we are in agreement on this one. I don't think we can stop it, I think as a whole the work force needs to adapt to the change and not try to stop it or place blame. I think as all of the examples have shown, there isn't just ONE cause to the mess we are in. As one person put it, most of what is being done is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Monroe]

I grew up in the 80's and 90's. I had my parents and my mother's family who work in the civil services. Police, teacher, military, nurse, doctor, law, fireman. And my Dad's family who worked blue collar jobs in London but have criminal records. Clean records equals a success story for that side of my family. :angel:

I don't think anyone under 40 (at least) expected to find a job and stay there for life. Those that did are still in the workforce and some are fighting to have what they expected to have.