All the same?

[Cruentus]

It's been pretty quiet here in Modern Arnis land, so I thought I'd spike up a few conversations.

Remember how Professor Presas used to always say, "It's all the same!"???

The question I have is how do you all interprete this idea in relationship to the transition between the blade, stick, and empty hand? Is it literally "the same" (body mechanics, application, etc.) with only a few minor corrections for safety (such as not putting the hand on the blade)? Or is it "the same" in more of a figurative way, where the body mechanics, strategy, and technique may vary according to your tool, yet the the techniques still "translate"?

What are your thoughts?

PAUL

 

[Cthulhu]

I think most of the techniques translate almost seamlessly from empty hand, to blade, to stick. An exception would be the Modern Arnis techniques where you grab the opponent's stick. Big no-no with a blade.

We'll frequently do hubud, tapi-tapi, palisut, knife tapping, sumbrada, and whatever else we can throw in as one flowing exercise. If you get a good flow going, it's really fun.

Cthulhu

 

[MJS]

Take for example the empty hand stick disarms. Basically, your weapon hand, which is now empty, is still used as if it had the stick in it. Upon first look, it does look and feel strange, but once you understand that it makes no difference if you have the stick or not, it then becomes the same.

As far as the original question goes...It depends on what you're doing. Both can apply.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by PAUL
It's been pretty quiet here in Modern Arnis land, so I thought I'd spike up a few conversations.

Remember how Professor Presas used to always say, "It's all the same!"???

The question I have is how do you all interprete this idea in relationship to the transition between the blade, stick, and empty hand? Is it literally "the same" (body mechanics, application, etc.) with only a few minor corrections for safety (such as not putting the hand on the blade)? Or is it "the same" in more of a figurative way, where the body mechanics, strategy, and technique may vary according to your tool, yet the the techniques still "translate"?

What are your thoughts?

PAUL

I'm not an Arnis practitioner but if your holding a knife your adjustments for avoidance of self injury is a skill all unto itself; so, it would be the same figurativly because there are some motions you just couldn't get away with holding a blade that would be correct motion without.
Sean

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by PAUL
"It's all the same!"???


I find myself saying "Its the same as _____(fill in the blank)" when trying to describe a different technique without thinking about it.

I don't mean that its EXACTLY the same, but that in past experiences of exercise, we have done similar movements. Trying to build on what someone already knows as a reference point to help them pick up the new thing quicker.

Example... "How do you use a fork"?
Answer..."its the same as using a spoon, only you can poke with the fork to pick up your food". Obviously a spoon is different from a fork but the action of holding and the motion of the wrist will be similar. So if you know how to use a spoon (past experience) it is easier to learn how to use a fork. "Its all the same" is just a reminder to the person that you already know how and that you can help teach yourself.

I'm not sure what the Professor had in mind, but he was a great teacher, and this is a special skill that many teachers have outside of martial arts.

 

[Rich Parsons]

As Andy stated, it is all the same in the gross motions, there will be fine details that will differ, such as, body positioning and distancing, and or hand placement.

:asian:

 

[Cthulhu]

Yes, but what about a spork?



Cthulhu

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Yes, but what about a spork?

I think that who ever invented the spork should be in the same hall of fame as Edison, Franklin, and Einstien! Awesome invention...I don't even know why I own forks and spoons by themselves anymore! :rofl:

 

[Cruentus]

THis is good, because we are seeing some great responses, and not all are "the same" (pun intended).

Lets explore footwork, in regards to this subject.

Is your footwork, stances, lower body movement, wieght distribution, etc. all the same whether its stick, knife, longer blade, or empty hand?

Remember also, that Modern Arnis isn't just confined to stick, short sword, knife, and hand; we could be using longer staffs, sibats, or soft weapons, and integrating Modern Arnis principles. Would our footwork change for these, or stay the same?

So what are your thoughts on footwork and lower body movement in regards to "its all the same"?

 

[MJS]

For the footwork, I'd have to say that for the most part it would be the same. You want to make sure that you're mobile enough so that you can move quickly, regardless of if you have a knife, stick, or empty hands.

Mike

 

[Dan Anderson]

To me, "It's all the same." is when you have trained long enough and varied enough to have something there when the oppetunity presents itself. The moment you are disarmed you have something ready. He counters you have something ready. He _____ and you have something ready. For me, it's the flow. There is always something you can do if you have familiarity with enough options.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cebu West]

I was thinking about this subject recently because I'm teaching a seminar with Chad next weekend and one of the topics I'm covering is abanico corto applications. I'm working on making adjustments to the way I learned them because I was always shown this from a blade perspective. After your initial block and counter there are several cuts involved before going to the final lock or disarm. When using a stick these extra cutting motions are non effective and time consuming therefore giving your opponent time to escape.
Now with a blade the cuts are deadly. So in this case the basic motions are the same but after that they are two different animals.
I plan on showing these differences at the seminar because I believe most people were taught these as if using a blade and need to make adjustments for the stick. Most people copy a technique but don't bother to analyze it. This where I think the problem is. If you put a sword in their hands then the light bulb goes on.

Another question is, why are many of the Modern Arnis techniques taught from the sword aspect when we are predominately a single stick system and have been from the start? Is it just tradition?

SAL

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Cebu West

Another question is, why are many of the Modern Arnis techniques taught from the sword aspect when we are predominately a single stick system and have been from the start? Is it just tradition?

SAL

I believe that Professors family style was prodominatily a blade system. Because of this, I think that Modern Arnis has a very intricate blade application, even if we often don't practice it (and seemed to have gotten away from it for a few years with the eveloution of Tapi-Tapi).

 

[Pappy Geo]

Blade is very much alive and well in the Northwest, indepth with the Special Forces training. Basics for most civilian students until trust is built before advanced training is warranted.

The movie "The Hunted" scared the hell out of me from a liability position!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Blade is very much alive and well in the Northwest, indepth with the Special Forces training. Basics for most civilian students until trust is built before advanced training is warranted.

The movie "The Hunted" scared the hell out of me from a liability position!

I know that instructors like Bram Frank, Datu Worden, and Datu Hartman has done a lot of good work to keep the Presas blade system alive. This is good for many of the students of Modern Arnis from the mid 90's and beyond because Professor was doing blade work less and less himself in his later years. In fact, I find it almost rare to find a Modern Arnis person who knows the blade system well (beyond, "You could do this with a blade also....um...yea.").

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by PAUL

Remember how Professor Presas used to always say, "It's all the same!"???

The question I have is how do you all interprete this idea in relationship to the transition between the blade, stick, and empty hand? Is it literally "the same" (body mechanics, application, etc.) with only a few minor corrections for safety (such as not putting the hand on the blade)? Or is it "the same" in more of a figurative way, where the body mechanics, strategy, and technique may vary according to your tool, yet the the techniques still "translate"?


PAUL

I relate it to both really. However I tend to make this point when I'm teaching people from another style or system and the movement that I'm teaching is similar to something in that system. This way they can relate to it.

For instance. When executing a takedown with the stick in front of the forearm and wedged behind the person's back while holding onto his hand/wrist with your empty hand. I call attention to the motion of wedging the stick in tight that's it's similar to an upper cut punch. And to keep it tight next to their body as if they were practicing punching drills from horse stance. This way if they have a boxing background they can relate to it and if they have a karate/TKD they can relate to that part of the technique as well.

Footwork is the same you move from a weight fwd stance to a weight backward sometimes, or other combinations, it's still similar to karate/TKD/ Kempo etc. etc. stances.

Wrist locks etc. etc. are still the same as other styles (there are only so many ways to bend the wrist). The proper body mechanics are curcial in any system.

Mark

 

[DoxN4cer]

I think that what the Professor was alluding to was not everything was so similar. Rather, he was trying to illustrate the the relationship between the various aspects of the system, and how one movement flows into another and another, and so on. It's all very seamless really.

The term inter-operability comes to mind.

Tim Kashino