A Tim Cartmell interview

[Xue Sheng]

TIM CARTMELL – True to the original directive

“The label ‘Internal Martial Arts’ is fairly recent, about 100 years old. It has come to refer to specific styles that adhere to similar principles. In actuality, there is no ‘Internal/External’ dichotomy, nor even separate ‘styles’, there are only individuals moving and fighting. Labeling movement and fighting skills as ‘styles’ is just a convenient way of organizing types of training and technique.”

 

[FullPotentialMA]

TIM CARTMELL – True to the original directive

Agreed!
The "separation" to "internal arts" and "external arts" is relatively recent.

 

[Takai]

Very true.

 

[Hidden 1]

I'm a big fan of Tim Cartmell but I really disagree with this.

First there are IMO major differences between styles. In practical application we have to mix and match things to make it work. In CMA people have always trained multiple styles. That's the way it was in the past and that's the way it is today. In today's world we also have to study Sanshou/Sanda and maybe even MMA so what we're doing now is even more mixed than it was in the past. If all styles are the same why have masters in CMA almost always studied 3 or more Chinese styles?

CMA is vast and there are differences between styles. There are families of styles (northern shaolin/longfist, northern mantis etc.) which have a lot of similarities but there are major differences between a style like mizong luohan and something like taiyiquan (liangyiquan). There's a big difference between the northern mantis styles and something like bajiquan. As a CMA player I'm thinking about starting TKD. I have looked at TKD and although the closest styles to it in CMA would be northern longfist styles it looks different from them. The kicks are different and the footwork is different.

Now let's talk about internal vs external. I currently train (in mainland China) in Xingyiquan and Baguazhang. I'm a beginner in Xingyiquan and I can tell you that both of those styles are very different from any other style I have done ( mostly northern longfist/shaolin stuff). I think high level waijia players can work on internal skills in some way but I don't see how they would ever produce power the way my current neijia teachers do. Please note I'm not saying the neijia styles are better but just that they have a very particular way of doing things. I'm not saying external styles are bad at all. I think those guys can be just as skilled if they learn some neigong that is compatible with what they do but I still think the way the power is produced in Chinese neijia styles is different.

I'm not sure why he said all of those things but I can only say that I emphatically disagree. We all know that the person (their training, skills, and attributes) is more important than the style so let's appreciate the diversity of styles and train in multiple styles as our CMA predecessors did.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I like a lot of Tim Cartmell’s stuff as well but I do not always agree with him either. But I think you are reading to much into this article that is not there

First there are IMO major differences between styles. In practical application we have to mix and match things to make it work. In CMA people have always trained multiple styles. That's the way it was in the past and that's the way it is today. In today's world we also have to study Sanshou/Sanda and maybe even MMA so what we're doing now is even more mixed than it was in the past.

It was never said in the article that there were not differences in the styles what was said was

Soon he discovered that good martial art is simply good martial art. All this hoopla about labels is just convenient. When fighting styles are practiced the way they’re supposed to, they all exhibit the same principles. They have to. They’re designed to improve the capabilities of the human body and the human body is only designed one way.

This is not saying that Ip Man, Sun Lutang and Jin Yunting were the same or that there styles had not difference it is saying that in the end they are the same, meaning they share a lot of the same principals and goals. As for Sanda/Sanshou there is more to it...part ofits development was political

If all styles are the same why have masters in CMA almost always studied 3 or more Chinese styles?

They have not almost alwys trained multiple styles, many of those we know or read about did or do but there are thousands of others that only trained one style

CMA is vast and there are differences between styles. There are families of styles (northern shaolin/longfist, northern mantis etc.) which have a lot of similarities but there are major differences between a style like mizong luohan and something like taiyiquan (liangyiquan). There's a big difference between the northern mantis styles and something like bajiquan. As a CMA player I'm thinking about starting TKD. I have looked at TKD and although the closest styles to it in CMA would be northern longfist styles it looks different from them. The kicks are different and the footwork is different.

TKD….ummm….why?

Now let's talk about internal vs external. I currently train (in mainland China) in Xingyiquan and Baguazhang. I'm a beginner in Xingyiquan and I can tell you that both of those styles are very different from any other style I have done ( mostly northern longfist/shaolin stuff). I think high level waijia players can work on internal skills in some way but I don't see how they would ever produce power the way my current neijia teachers do. Please note I'm not saying the neijia styles are better but just that they have a very particular way of doing things. I'm not saying external styles are bad at all. I think those guys can be just as skilled if they learn some neigong that is compatible with what they do but I still think the way the power is produced in Chinese neijia styles is different.

The reason you see such a vast difference between Xingyiquan/Baguazhang and other styles is because one can argue that most styles are based on Long Fist or come from it where xingyiquan and baguazhang do not
Beyond that I will not get into an internal external discussion beyond with is in the article

“The label ‘Internal Martial Arts’ is fairly recent, about 100 years old. It has come to refer to specific styles that adhere to similar principles. In actuality, there is no ‘Internal/External’ dichotomy, nor even separate ‘styles’, there are only individuals moving and fighting. Labeling movement and fighting skills as ‘styles’ is just a convenient way of organizing types of training and technique.”

I'm not sure why he said all of those things but I can only say that I emphatically disagree. We all know that the person (their training, skills, and attributes) is more important than the style so let's appreciate the diversity of styles and train in multiple styles as our CMA predecessors did.

There the problem...he did not say all those things or for that matter any of those things.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To me, "internal vs. external" is just like

- self-defense vs. combat, or
- send someone to heaven vs. kill.

You use fancy word to make yourself to feel superior than others. It's "fist meets face" that all it matters.

 

[Hidden 1]

I like a lot of Tim Cartmell’s stuff as well but I do not always agree with him either. But I think you are reading to much into this article that is not there



It was never said in the article that there were not differences in the styles what was said was



This is not saying that Ip Man, Sun Lutang and Jin Yunting were the same or that there styles had not difference it is saying that in the end they are the same, meaning they share a lot of the same principals and goals. As for Sanda/Sanshou there is more to it...part ofits development was political



They have not almost alwys trained multiple styles, many of those we know or read about did or do but there are thousands of others that only trained one style



TKD….ummm….why?



The reason you see such a vast difference between Xingyiquan/Baguazhang and other styles is because one can argue that most styles are based on Long Fist or come from it where xingyiquan and baguazhang do not
Beyond that I will not get into an internal external discussion beyond with is in the article





There the problem...he did not say all those things or for that matter any of those things.

I'm sorry I should have read that article carefully before giving a knee jerk reaction. You're right, I was reading things into it that were not really there.

Why TKD? That's a good question. I'm doing modern wushu right now in addition to the other stuff and I guess I just wish I could really learn and focus on some of the KMA kicks. You know in traditional northern styles our kicks are different even though we have a lot. We have the jump spinning crescent kicks but I think KMA has a lot of kicks that we don't do. We don't have all the jump spinning kicks that they do. I think it's good because it gives me a chance to do all the difficult kicking drills that they do. I don't know if all of their jump spinning kicks are practical but they look like fun. It seems like it's won't be too challenging for me to learn everything else in that style. The forms look so simple compared to what I already do and their stances are also just easier versions of what we do in northern CMA. I guess it just seems like I could get a chance to really focus on kicks a couple of times a week. Maybe I'll reconsider but I feel like it makes sense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm sorry I should have read that article carefully before giving a knee jerk reaction. You're right, I was reading things into it that were not really there.

Why TKD? That's a good question. I'm doing modern wushu right now in addition to the other stuff and I guess I just wish I could really learn and focus on some of the KMA kicks. You know in traditional northern styles our kicks are different even though we have a lot. We have the jump spinning crescent kicks but I think KMA has a lot of kicks that we don't do. We don't have all the jump spinning kicks that they do. I think it's good because it gives me a chance to do all the difficult kicking drills that they do. I don't know if all of their jump spinning kicks are practical but they look like fun. It seems like it's won't be too challenging for me to learn everything else in that style. The forms look so simple compared to what I already do and their stances are also just easier versions of what we do in northern CMA. I guess it just seems like I could get a chance to really focus on kicks a couple of times a week. Maybe I'll reconsider but I feel like it makes sense.

If you are already in china and can find a "Traditional" Changquan teacher you will get a lot of kicks.

What university are you training modern Wushu at or are you at Shaolin?