6 1/2 Points for the Pole

[KPM]

Hi Guys!

Luk Dim Boon Kwun means "6 1/2 point pole." I thought it would be interesting to compare what these "points" actually are!

What are the "6 1/2 points" for the pole in your lineage?


I'll go first! The 6 1/2 points for pole method from Tang Yik Weng Chun are:

Chin or “curl” is the “half point.” This is a semi-circular transitional movement. It has no offensive application and therefore it is considered a “half” of a point. It is used to move from the low-line to the high-line in relationship to the opponent’s pole or from one side of his pole to the other. There is no full circle in Tang Yik Pole.

Si or “split/tear” is a motion that strikes downward and glances forward along the opponent’s pole. It deflects his pole and targets his forward hand as a strike.

Chout or “lift/pick up” is an upward snapping motion. It can deflect the opponent’s pole when snapping upward from an inferior position, or could be an upward strike directed to his arm or even the back of his head if you have stepped past each other.

Tan or “quick hit” is similar to Si. Tan is a motion that strikes downward sharply on the opponent’s pole to deflect but does not glance forward. It could target the pole as a defense or be aimed directly at the opponent’s lead hand or forearm as an attack.

Tik or “sting” is a quick jab or “flick” with the tip of the pole. It uses only the arms. This is the main offensive strike in the Tang Yik pole method. It is typically aimed at the opponent’s lead upper arm or the ribs right next to it. As a defensive motion it can be used just like a “stop hit” in fencing or a “jeet” interception in Wing Chun or Jeet Kune Do.

Got or “cut” is a large downward swing that is like cutting downward with a two-handed sword. It stops parallel to the ground. It could obviously be a heavy blow to the opponent’s head, shoulder, or lead arm as well as a strong defensive blow to his pole that would have the potential of knocking it out of his hand. It is similar to the Si, but with a much larger amplitude.

Cheung or “spear” is a full thrust with the tip of the pole. This is the same as the Tik, but now you step forward with the lead leg and drop in to a low “horse stance” or “See Ping Ma” to provide greater penetration. This is a more committed motion and so is reserved as a finishing blow. It has the potential to knock an opponent right off his feet and to the ground. This is also considered a killing blow because it would do a lot of damage!

 

[geezer]

Hi Guys!

Luk Dim Boon Kwun means "6 1/2 point pole." I thought it would be interesting to compare what these "points" actually are!

What are the "6 1/2 points" for the pole in your lineage?


I'll go first! The 6 1/2 points for pole method from Tang Yik Weng Chun are...

^^^^ This (the bolded text above) is what separates you and other people on this forum who really do want to share info from our famous "dynamic duo". Good on ya!

 

[wckf92]

Hi Guys!

Luk Dim Boon Kwun means "6 1/2 point pole." I thought it would be interesting to compare what these "points" actually are!

What are the "6 1/2 points" for the pole in your lineage?


I'll go first! The 6 1/2 points for pole method from Tang Yik Weng Chun are:

Chin or “curl” is the “half point.” This is a semi-circular transitional movement. It has no offensive application and therefore it is considered a “half” of a point. It is used to move from the low-line to the high-line in relationship to the opponent’s pole or from one side of his pole to the other. There is no full circle in Tang Yik Pole.

Si or “split/tear” is a motion that strikes downward and glances forward along the opponent’s pole. It deflects his pole and targets his forward hand as a strike.

Chout or “lift/pick up” is an upward snapping motion. It can deflect the opponent’s pole when snapping upward from an inferior position, or could be an upward strike directed to his arm or even the back of his head if you have stepped past each other.

Tan or “quick hit” is similar to Si. Tan is a motion that strikes downward sharply on the opponent’s pole to deflect but does not glance forward. It could target the pole as a defense or be aimed directly at the opponent’s lead hand or forearm as an attack.

Tik or “sting” is a quick jab or “flick” with the tip of the pole. It uses only the arms. This is the main offensive strike in the Tang Yik pole method. It is typically aimed at the opponent’s lead upper arm or the ribs right next to it. As a defensive motion it can be used just like a “stop hit” in fencing or a “jeet” interception in Wing Chun or Jeet Kune Do.

Got or “cut” is a large downward swing that is like cutting downward with a two-handed sword. It stops parallel to the ground. It could obviously be a heavy blow to the opponent’s head, shoulder, or lead arm as well as a strong defensive blow to his pole that would have the potential of knocking it out of his hand. It is similar to the Si, but with a much larger amplitude.

Cheung or “spear” is a full thrust with the tip of the pole. This is the same as the Tik, but now you step forward with the lead leg and drop in to a low “horse stance” or “See Ping Ma” to provide greater penetration. This is a more committed motion and so is reserved as a finishing blow. It has the potential to knock an opponent right off his feet and to the ground. This is also considered a killing blow because it would do a lot of damage!

- Chin/curl: interesting, but hard to picture. I think something similar in my form.
- Si/split/tear: sounds something like a jum sao concept in the empty hand arena. Think this point is in my form also.
- Chout/lift/pick up: is the pole horizontal? Or are you referring to the tip, or the entire pole? We have two motions that "lift"...
- Tan/quick hit: again, sounds very similar...but same question: is it referencing a horizontal pole being snapped downward as a unit?
- Tik/sting/flick: hmmmm.....I think we have this. It is done from a low horse.
- Got/cut: yup
- Cheung/spear: yup. From a low horse, from a semi/low horse, and from standing. Like a "bil jee" but with a pole

 

[Danny T]

The Six and a Half Strikes of Luk Dim Boon Gwun in the WC I have learned.
1. TAI GWUN - Upward Rising Strike
2. DUM GWUN - Downward Lowering Strike
3. HEUN GWUN - Circling Strike (is a half circle)
4. TIU GWUN - Lifting Up
5. DAN GWUN - Downward Snap
6. LON GWUN - Horizontal Pushing Strike
6½. BIU GWUN - Thrusting Strike

 

[wckf92]

The Six and a Half Strikes of Luk Dim Boon Gwun in the WC I have learned.
1. TAI GWUN - Upward Rising Strike
2. DUM GWUN - Downward Lowering Strike
3. HEUN GWUN - Circling Strike (is a half circle)
4. TIU GWUN - Lifting Up
5. DAN GWUN - Downward Snap
6. LON GWUN - Horizontal Pushing Strike
6½. BIU GWUN - Thrusting Strike

Thx Danny. This sounds familiar. Out of curiosity, is your families pole form online anywhere i.e. via youtube?
Thank you

 

[Danny T]

Thx Danny. This sounds familiar. Out of curiosity, is your families pole form online anywhere i.e. via youtube?
Thank you

I am unaware of any.

 

[LFJ]

^^^^ This (the bolded text above) is what separates you and other people on this forum who really do want to share info from our famous "dynamic duo". Good on ya!

Actually, geezer, the reason I didn't give my answer first in the last thread with you is because I could expect the reaction to be very different if we didn't first cover problems with the alternative, given the general aversion to anything coming from my point of view.

I had to first demonstrate the failure of the alternative, and then hoped you guys could come to the answer yourselves so that I'm not accused of a "I'm right, you're wrong" / "because I said so" argument.

It was an attempt to make the perspective and conclusion more objective.

Anyway, here are our points:

1. fong-lung-cheung (releasing dragon spear)
2. ping-cheung (leveling spear)
3. leung-yi (two moves)
4. lau-seui (stirring water)
5. kam-gwan (covering pole)
6. dang-gwan (ascending pole)
6.5 che-cheung (slanting pole)

 

[KPM]

Chin/curl: interesting, but hard to picture. I think something similar in my form.

---It is very similar to the "disengage" from western fencing.

- Si/split/tear: sounds something like a jum sao concept in the empty hand arena. Think this point is in my form also.

---Yes. But it slides forward into the opponent's lead hand as it sinks.

- Chout/lift/pick up: is the pole horizontal? Or are you referring to the tip, or the entire pole? We have two motions that "lift"...

----Tip mostly, but can be the whole pole if the circumstance dictates. The pole does not stay horizontal.

- Tan/quick hit: again, sounds very similar...but same question: is it referencing a horizontal pole being snapped downward as a unit?

---No, more like cutting down with a sword

- Tik/sting/flick: hmmmm.....I think we have this. It is done from a low horse.

---Ours is done from the regular "cat stance." It flows very quickly from other motions, just like a boxer's jab.


- Cheung/spear: yup. From a low horse, from a semi/low horse, and from standing. Like a "bil jee" but with a pole

---We reserve the term for the more committed "power strike" delivered from the semi/low horse.

 

[KPM]

Thanks Danny! But refresh my memory....are you in Jiu Wan lineage?

1. TAI GWUN - Upward Rising Strike

---Likely similar to our "Choat"

2. DUM GWUN - Downward Lowering Strike

---Likely similar to our "Got"

3. HEUN GWUN - Circling Strike (is a half circle)

---Sounds like the same thing as our "Chin"

4. TIU GWUN - Lifting Up

----We have the short set of curling the pole upward and then snapping it straight down while standing upright and keeping the pole horizontal...same as I've seen in many Ip Man forms. But this is considered developmental and not one of the "points." Are you referring to curling the pole upward while keeping it horizontal?

5. DAN GWUN - Downward Snap

---Likely the same as our "Tan"

6. LON GWUN - Horizontal Pushing Strike

---We have this in our form as well, but not considered one of the "points."

6½. BIU GWUN - Thrusting Strike

---Same as our "Cheung." But why is this considered the 1/2 point in your system?

 

[wckf92]

Chin/curl: interesting, but hard to picture. I think something similar in my form.

---It is very similar to the "disengage" from western fencing.

- Si/split/tear: sounds something like a jum sao concept in the empty hand arena. Think this point is in my form also.

---Yes. But it slides forward into the opponent's lead hand as it sinks.

- Chout/lift/pick up: is the pole horizontal? Or are you referring to the tip, or the entire pole? We have two motions that "lift"...

----Tip mostly, but can be the whole pole if the circumstance dictates. The pole does not stay horizontal.

- Tan/quick hit: again, sounds very similar...but same question: is it referencing a horizontal pole being snapped downward as a unit?

---No, more like cutting down with a sword

- Tik/sting/flick: hmmmm.....I think we have this. It is done from a low horse.

---Ours is done from the regular "cat stance." It flows very quickly from other motions, just like a boxer's jab.


- Cheung/spear: yup. From a low horse, from a semi/low horse, and from standing. Like a "bil jee" but with a pole

---We reserve the term for the more committed "power strike" delivered from the semi/low horse.

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

[Danny T]

Thanks Danny! But refresh my memory....are you in Jiu Wan lineage?

1. TAI GWUN - Upward Rising Strike

---Likely similar to our "Choat"

2. DUM GWUN - Downward Lowering Strike

---Likely similar to our "Got"

3. HEUN GWUN - Circling Strike (is a half circle)

---Sounds like the same thing as our "Chin"

4. TIU GWUN - Lifting Up

----We have the short set of curling the pole upward and then snapping it straight down while standing upright and keeping the pole horizontal...same as I've seen in many Ip Man forms. But this is considered developmental and not one of the "points." Are you referring to curling the pole upward while keeping it horizontal?

5. DAN GWUN - Downward Snap

---Likely the same as our "Tan"

6. LON GWUN - Horizontal Pushing Strike

---We have this in our form as well, but not considered one of the "points."

6½. BIU GWUN - Thrusting Strike

---Same as our "Cheung." But why is this considered the 1/2 point in your system?

Yes, Jiu Wan lineage.
We use the horizontal moves upward & downward and as well as the forward & backward as strikes.

As I was taught all strikes also defend (LSDD) so are full points whereas the Biu simply thrusts so is considered a half point.

 

[KPM]

Did a little researching in my library today. Here are some more "points" I could find:

Randy Williams (Augustine Fong lineage):

1. Tai Kwun - Raising Pole (curling upwards to chamber for the thrust)
2. Geet Kwun - High Gate - Opening Pole (like a Tan Sau)
3. Sot Kwun - Low Gate - Opening Pole (like a Gan Sau)
4. Lan Kwun - Horizontal Snapping Pole (forward and backward)
5. Huen Kwun - Circling Pole (this seems to be a full circle, not half)
6. Ding Kwun - Downward Snapping Pole
6.5 Biu Kwun (thrust) and Deem Kwun (strike with the butt of the pole)

Wayne Belonoha (Moy Yat lineage):

The 6 "points" refer to the number of times you drop down into a low horse and do the thrust in the form itself, and the 1/2 point is semi-circle recovery motion. So the "points" are neither individual techniques nor concepts, just thrusts in the form.

Benny Meng (unclear, likely Ip Ching lineage?) These are seen more as concepts than actual techniques:

1. Dim: any thrust with the tip of the pole
2. Sot: Snapping down and contacting with the mid portion of the pole
3. Tiu: Snapping up and contacting with the mid portion of the pole
4. Kit: to open up or pry open, sideways motions like a Tan Sau or Gan Sau
5. Huen: to circle
6. Lan: to obstruct (horizontal snapping motions or pushing with the pole)
6.5 Lau: to flow, the concept of flowing between and connecting any of the above

I had two sources for the Pole in William Cheung's TWC, however the 6 1/2 points were never listed. This leads me to believe that the TWC lineages does not use the idea of "6 1/2 points." Can anyone confirm? Juany? Thanks!

 

[KPM]

Anyway, here are our points:

1. fong-lung-cheung (releasing dragon spear)
2. ping-cheung (leveling spear)
3. leung-yi (two moves)
4. lau-seui (stirring water)
5. kam-gwan (covering pole)
6. dang-gwan (ascending pole)
6.5 che-cheung (slanting pole)

Thanks LFJ! Can you provide a short description of each to give us a little better idea as to what they are?

 

[LFJ]

Thanks LFJ! Can you provide a short description of each to give us a little better idea as to what they are?

1. fong-lung-cheung (releasing dragon spear) = punch
2. ping-cheung (leveling spear) = lan-sau
3. leung-yi (two moves) = jam-sau, defends while lining up the punch, hence "two moves"
4. lau-seui (stirring water) = bong-sau or gaang-sau, low deflection
5. kam-gwan (covering pole) = jat-sau, knocks the pole down after lau-seui taking the attack line
6. dang-gwan (ascending pole) = arching lan-sau motion at the start and finish of the form
6.5 che-cheung (slanting pole) = final action recovering poor position, half point because it starts from extension, not from body like other actions

 

[wckf92]

1. fong-lung-cheung (releasing dragon spear) = punch
2. ping-cheung (leveling spear) = lan-sau
3. leung-yi (two moves) = jam-sau, defends while lining up the punch, hence "two moves"
4. lau-seui (stirring water) = bong-sau or gaang-sau, low deflection
5. kam-gwan (covering pole) = jat-sau, knocks the pole down after lau-seui taking the attack line
6. dang-gwan (ascending pole) = arching lan-sau motion at the start and finish of the form
6.5 che-cheung (slanting pole) = final action recovering poor position, half point because it starts from extension, not from body like other actions

Couldn't help but notice that some of these are 'spear', while others are 'pole'. In WSL VT...is the thought that the VT pole descends from TCMA spear methods?
Thx

 

[LFJ]

Couldn't help but notice that some of these are 'spear', while others are 'pole'. In WSL VT...is the thought that the VT pole descends from TCMA spear methods?
Thx

Interesting question. Can't be sure on the history, but having trained northern spear methods I can say there is a very close resemblance.

For instance, the main spear actions (in Mandarin) "lan, na, zha" (to intercept, seize, and thrust) correspond to the long pole actions we call (in Cantonese) "lau-seui, kam-gwan, fong-lung-cheung" (stirring water, covering pole, releasing dragon spear).

The main difference is that the spear thrust is done with the shaft sliding through the lead hand as the rear hand "punches" through to meet the lead and the body is squared up. This extends to maximum reach of the spear while keeping our body at distance. The pole is much heavier though, so we keep both hands firmly on the pole and use footwork to blast into the target after capturing the line, rather than squaring up.

Also, the spear is much lighter and more flexible so this action is blindingly fast using speed and flexibility to accomplish the tasks. After deflecting the opponent's weapon, the spear tip cuts down on their hand before thrusting into the body. With the pole, we have to use hips and body mass to knock their weapon down and, as I said, use footwork to blast into them with the thrust.

The spear is also always done left-hand lead, VT pole right-hand lead (though beneficial to train both). In many ways the right hand is the controlling and power hand in both cases. Similar concepts, but still very different body methods given the characteristics of each weapon.

 

[wckf92]

Interesting question. Can't be sure on the history, but having trained northern spear methods I can say there is a very close resemblance.

For instance, the main spear actions (in Mandarin) "lan, na, zha" (to intercept, seize, and thrust) correspond to the long pole actions we call (in Cantonese) "lau-seui, kam-gwan, fong-lung-cheung" (stirring water, covering pole, releasing dragon spear).

The main difference is that the spear thrust is done with the shaft sliding through the lead hand as the rear hand "punches" through to meet the lead and the body is squared up. This extends to maximum reach of the spear while keeping our body at distance. The pole is much heavier though, so we keep both hands firmly on the pole and use footwork to blast into the target after capturing the line, rather than squaring up.

Also, the spear is much lighter and more flexible so this action is blindingly fast using speed and flexibility to accomplish the tasks. After deflecting the opponent's weapon, the spear tip cuts down on their hand before thrusting into the body. With the pole, we have to use hips and body mass to knock their weapon down and, as I said, use footwork to blast into them with the thrust.

The spear is also always done left-hand lead, VT pole right-hand lead (though beneficial to train both). In many ways the right hand is the controlling and power hand in both cases. Similar concepts, but still very different body methods given the characteristics of each weapon.

Interesting.
Perhaps I need to check out some TCMA spear videos or forms.
Thx dude.

 

[KPM]

Tang Yik Pole definitely claims some influence from spear technique. There are actually two forms. There is the standard form known as "Luk Dim Boon Kwun Fat"...or "method", and there is a simpler developmental form or exercise known as "Luk Dim Boon Kwun Kung"...or "skill." The second one is said to have been developed by combining the pole with the 13 spears method. My impression is that the structuring and angling for this form was taken from a spear form, because the actual techniques are no different than the "Fat" form. But definitely plenty of overlaps between pole and spear techniques. Notice in the Tang Yik method the full thrust is referred to as a "cheung" or "spear."

LFJ is "spot on" about the spear. Here is some footage for comparison:

Baji Spear:

 

[LFJ]

Here's the first video I could find showing these actions (intercept, seize, and thrust).

It can be as large or small as necessary, easy with a light and flexible spear. The hip should really explode more into the "punch" than what he's doing. But you get the point.

It's a tighter version of the pole actions seen in PB's clip below. Same concept though. Intercept, seize the line, attack.

 

[KPM]

Anyone have further input? How about 6 1/2 points for Leung Ting's pole form? I know there are several Wing Tsun people here!