3 Empty ended taos in Wing Chun : video and comments

[poulperadieux]

http://poulperadieux.com/about/chi-sao/

Commments, and discussion welcome !

 

[geezer]

I was only able to view the Chum Kiu video. The movement sequence was generally similar to the version I practice, but the articulation of the techniques and even the kinetic linkages and energy flow was totally different. Although I have practiced Chum Kiu at various speeds, I've never seen it performed so very slowly, like an extremely relaxed version of the Saam Pai Fut movements of Siu Nim Tao. Except for the stamping step near the end, it had an almost somnambulistic quality.

At any rate, I assume there were also videos of SNT and Biu Tze. I have no idea why I couldn't access them.

 

[poulperadieux]

I was only able to view the Chum Kiu video. The movement sequence was generally similar to the version I practice, but the articulation of the techniques and even the kinetic linkages and energy flow was totally different. Although I have practiced Chum Kiu at various speeds, I've never seen it performed so very slowly, like an extremely relaxed version of the Saam Pai Fut movements of Siu Nim Tao. Except for the stamping step near the end, it had an almost somnambulistic quality.

At any rate, I assume there were also videos of SNT and Biu Tze. I have no idea why I couldn't access them.

Actually, I'm pretty fast for the need to demonstrate in this video, chum kiu, slt, BJ, and even mook jong for training purpose, better for my point of view (and some my master's), to do them slowly.

Siu Lim tao in 30' can make you sweat bullets, and train you hard on the feet, chum kiu and biu jee push the concept even harder on knees fot BJ, on Ankles for Chum Kiu.

But one must do them sloooowly to feel that.

Like in tai chi, when you do a speedy form, you take shortcuts, like when you fight.

Mook jong developps string between techniques, prepares for the shortcuts, the inturruptions in your techniques one must do to look like something in face of an opponent.

When doing a tao, you are alone, and, as you are not doing a Kata or a Poomae, you don't fight an opponent, you train your body, and you have better way to do it slowly.


A good tao is made like a good Hot Pot, the slower you cook it, the more flavors you get in the end.


Another link maybe :

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLy6LJuZonG6BuKoKK1HFYOl68dqhWEx_J&feature=view_all

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am hardly qualified to discuss anything Wing Chun since I only learned Siu Lim Tao in 2 kinda sorta different lineages but I agree with geezer but I am talking about Siu Lim Tao, I have never seen all of it done as slow or without what us taiji guys call fajin. Looks fine to me, just never saw it done that way.

I can see all three but since I only know Siu Lim Tao I will not comment on the others

I have only one question, am I seeing it wrong due to the angle but are you locking out your elbows in Siu Lim Tao

Like in tai chi, when you do a speedy form, you take shortcuts, like when you fight.

Slow has its purposes, more for training body unity and linkages but you need to work speed as well. But I will add the going from one posture to another you are not so much going from point A to point B as much as you re going from point A to point Z and all the points in between are important and necessary and that going slow is a great way to train that

 

[poulperadieux]

I am hardly qualified to discuss anything Wing Chun since I only learned Siu Lim Tao in 2 kinda sorta different lineages but I agree with geezer but I am talking about Siu Lim Tao, I have never seen all of it done as slow or without what us taiji guys call fajin. Looks fine to me, just never saw it done that way.

Another one so :

I have only one question, am I seeing it wrong due to the angle but are you locking out your elbows in Siu Lim Tao

I don't understand what you mean by locking out.
I keep the shoulders down and forward, I drill my fists horizontal in an external rotation and try not to touch my body to rest them.
Really painful stance, and hard to maintain, Yee Gee Kim Yeung ma, Works the legs, the hips, balance and a lot of spirals.

Slow has its purposes, more for training body unity and linkages but you need to work speed as well. But I will add the going from one posture to another you are not so much going from point A to point B as much as you re going from point A to point Z and all the points in between are important and necessary and that going slow is a great way to train that

P R E C I S E L Y !!!!!

First step in Wing Chun, get to understand the body unit, and that all parts of a move is a technique when the body is united.

 

[wtxs]

I don't understand what you mean by locking out.

I think he is referring to the extension in your punch and palm strikes.

 

[poulperadieux]

I think he is referring to the extension in your punch and palm strikes.

I work with muscular chains when I move, so I train them in the forms, from the feet to the tip of the fingers.

Move interruption is for the dummy, in the empty handed tao, I go as far as I can.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think he is referring to the extension in your punch and palm strikes.

Yup, that is what I was talking about the full extension of the arm to lock out the elbows in punches and palm strikes.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I work with muscular chains when I move, so I train them in the forms, from the feet to the tip of the fingers.

Move interruption is for the dummy, in the empty handed tao, I go as far as I can.

What happens in application if you miss with the strike, do you still fully extend and lock out the elbow?

 

[poulperadieux]

What happens in application if you miss with the strike, do you still fully extend and lock out the elbow?

I heard of a Wing Chun Guy who missed another guy with several palm strikes at wing chun range, It was said it was the same who shot an elephant in the feet in a couloir aiming for the head.

He had terrible aim, pooor guy.


The palm strikes applications movements are in the wooden dummy form by the way.

 

[Argus]

It's always interesting to see other people's forms. I'm curious, what is your lineage?


I'm not very experienced as of yet, but here are my impressions of the first form:

- In the opening movements, we usually only cross twice; once down, and then once up, without folding the arms inside each other (just turn the palms over). I've never seen a lineage before who didn't do it this way, but it doesn't strike me as a big deal.

- When punching, even when taking the guise of a punch during the opening movements, the fist should already be aligned to hit when you bring it to the center (rather than the back of the hand facing outward).

- I've always seen hyun-sau practiced with the hand open, rather than closed in a fist. I'm not sure why you would practice it with the hand closed.

- Very good movement of the elbow during wu-sau. It's has better structure if you keep the hand vertical, though.

- The vertical palm strike after the pak-sau is very low, and the fingers are too extended, making it look almost more like biu-sau. While it's usually a good idea not to head-hunt with your punches, but rather aim about chest level (particularly when you're on the outside), the purpose of this shape (a vertical palm as opposed to horizontal) is to attack when you're on the inside. That being the case, you need to cut off anything coming from the outside, so it is important to aim high. Most lineages practice this movement at face level, I believe.

- This may not be specific to your lineage, but in the third section, we practice gum-sau and fak-sau with a relaxed, "exploding" energy released at the end. Also, we practice these movements with the palms facing down, rather than the fingers. Another kind of odd thing that I notice is how you completely lock your elbows at the end of these movements. This isn't a good habit to get into. Your lan-sau looks good; many people play it too high.

- I didn't see jut sau.

- The second palm strike is a horizontal palm. This is a different structure, for when you are on the outside. Again, make sure to hit with the palm.

- Woah! Gan-sau, tan-sau, where are you going? No need to bring the gan-sau way up and across your body before you cut down. That's taking it way off center, and is a very large movement. And with the second tan-sau, you're pushing way out to the side. This is not something we should ever do. Don't push outwards.

- After that tan-sau, and hyun-sau, the next movement is another horizontal palm, aimed low (but not quite as low as you place your hand - that's a bit extreme).

- Bong-sau is good, the tan-sau following is much too low and over-extended, and the tok-sau (or dai-jeung) should be extending forward, not just going up.

- When replacing the hands, don't bring the new hand all the way up to your shoulder before scraping down. Again, that is far too much unnecessary distance to travel. Usually we place the hand just under the elbow, and turn the palm over.

- When chain punching, bring your extended hand down and back, underneath the line it traveled, and make sure the new punch is going straight. Don't try to punch over your old hand.


I have to say that I find your Sil Lim Tao very strange. It's hard to say that something is definitively wrong if that's how someone has been taught in their lineage, but then, I do not believe that every (or any) lineage does everything entirely correct. However, most of what I pointed out goes beyond lineage-specific differences, and doesn't line-up with anything I have seen practiced in any other lineage. Still, I commend you for being bold enough to put your forms up like this, and ask for feedback! I hope that it's helpful.

 

[poulperadieux]

Oh Lord, you sure talk a lot and is really bold for a inexperienced guy !

Try studying early Ip man student lineages and than we'll talk again.

And, by the way, I'm under the radiant octopus totemic spirit guidance for now, and an adept of Chthulhu Chick.

 

[Argus]

...

 

[poulperadieux]

...

Sorry man, but witch level are you to juge this way something you don't understand.
Ask questions before judging, and you'll get my respect.

Try to respect my work first, especially if, like you said, you are a beginner.

I can share with you, but stay humble and polite in your comments uh?

 

[wtxs]

Yup, that is what I was talking about the full extension of the arm to lock out the elbows in punches and palm strikes.

WC is an close-in/close-range fighting system, if one must fully extend punch or strikes, one would be chasing the target. Fully extended arm also lend itself to be easily intercepted and control, and the elbow joint would be in danger by an cutting pak, palm or punch ... JIMHO.

We all had heard the saying "you fight the way you had trained", locking out the elbow or the knee for that matter, is not the habit I personally favors.

 

[Argus]

Sorry man, but witch level are you to juge this way something you don't understand.
Ask questions before judging, and you'll get my respect.

Try to respect my work first, especially if, like you said, you are a beginner.

I can share with you, but stay humble and polite in your comments uh?

I did not intend my comment to be rude. As far as being judgmental, I assume that by posting these forms and asking for comments, you're looking for feedback from other practitioners. I gave you an honest assessment; what help is it if you ask for advice and I do not try to offer sound judgement? Of course, anything must be judged within a context. My context, and that of most, if not all of the members here, is from the primary, modern lineages. And from that point of view, if I may be bold yet again, your forms are quite strange and foreign.

Now, I don't know what this early lineage that you claim to be is, and I don't know what was passed down to you. I'm not trying to judge that. I merely attempted to give my honest assessment of the form, from a commonly accepted context, in hopes that this is what you were looking for, and that it might be of help. If not, then I apologize for misunderstanding and not offering anything of value.

On the subject of "judging" others, though, does my inexperience make my observations incorrect? From my context, I believe my observations were sound, or I wouldn't have pointed them out. If your context is different, I'd love to hear how exactly, and why you do things differently. I'm always looking to learn.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, even if the form may be done in slow speed (speed is just a relative term anyway), at the end of each punch, the arm should

- look bend but it's straight, look straight but it's bend.
- have the elastic look as if the punch just bounce off from contact.

 

[Xue Sheng]

WC is an close-in/close-range fighting system, if one must fully extend punch or strikes, one would be chasing the target. Fully extended arm also lend itself to be easily intercepted and control, and the elbow joint would be in danger by an cutting pak, palm or punch ... JIMHO.

We all had heard the saying "you fight the way you had trained", locking out the elbow or the knee for that matter, is not the habit I personally favors.

Thanks, I was told not to lock the elbow when I was training wing chun in both lineages (both go back to Ip Man just different people in between Ip Man and me) and that was to protect the elbow joint.

That is also the case when I trained Xingyiquan, Sanda and Baguazhang and it is the case in Taijiquan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I heard of a Wing Chun Guy who missed another guy with several palm strikes at wing chun range, It was said it was the same who shot an elephant in the feet in a couloir aiming for the head.

He had terrible aim, pooor guy.


The palm strikes applications movements are in the wooden dummy form by the way.

There also for real fighting applications too

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I was told not to lock the elbow ...

To lock the elbow at the end of each punch may look good for "performance" (The modern Wushu does that all the time). It won't be good for combat or health. If the end of your punch is the beginning of your next punch, your arm will never be locked.