10 gups, 8 jangs

[Laurentkd]

ok,
So this may or may not apply to a lot of people....

"Traditionally" (whatever that means) there were 10 gup ranks. But, the WTF only has 8 color belt forms (not sure about other orgs). For those of you who follow this format (or something similar) what do you teach when you run out of forms?
Currently, we add in some weapons in between. So you'll learn TG 5 at blue, and then focus on nunchakus and some hoshinsool at high blue, then back to TG 6 at red.
I think another option would be to only have 8 levels (belt colors) but consider one "color" as both 3rd and 2nd gup (for example), depending on the time in grade.

What do you do? And if you don't have a new form at each level, what do you teach?

 

[dortiz]

10th No form, basics, kicks , punch, stance etc.
9th beginners form 10 basic movements
8th Il Jang
7th EE Jang
6th Sam Jang
5th Sah Jang
4Th Oh Jang
3rd Yuk Jang
2nd Chil Jang
1st Pal Jang
Koryo

Regardless of forms : One steps, Hoshinsul sparring etc.

 

[KELLYG]

We do the same as Dortiz but we have
10th gup 20 steps (all front stances moving in the same pattern as the taeguek IL Jang.
9 th gup key choi jang (sp) 20 steps with blocks and punches in the same pattern

 

[Red Menace]

Again similar to the above: (I've used the spellings that we are given. I know that one usually sees Palgwe rather than Pal Gue etc.)

10th to 9th (white to yellow): Ki Cho Il Bo
9th to 8th (yellow to gold): Ki Cho Yi Bo and Ki Cho Sam Bo
8th to 7th (gold to orange): Pal Gue Il Jang
7th to 6th (orange to green): Pal Gue Yi Jang
6th to 5th (green to blue): Pal Gue Sam Jang
5th to 4th (blue to brown): Pal Gue Sah Jang
4th to 3rd (brown to purple): Pal Gue O Jang
3rd to 2nd (purple to red): Pal Gue Yuk Jang
2nd to 1st (red to navy blue): Pal Gue Chil Janghttp://www.hongkongkimtaekwondo.com/kichoilbo.htmlhttp://www.hongkongkimtaekwondo.com/palgueiljang.html
1st Gup to temporary 1st Dan: (navy to black/red) Pal Gue Pal Jang
Temporary 1st Dan to 1st Dan: (black/red to black) Hwa-rang
1st Dan to 2nd Dan: Koryo (and the first three Taeguk forms)
I know 2nd Dans learn Keumgang and more of the Taeguk forms, beyond that I'm not sure.

http://www.hongkongkimtaekwondo.com/kichoyibo.html

 

[Miles]

We only have 9 gueps (just like only 9 dans).

9th guep students learn 3 kibon poomsae.

8th guep is first color belt (yellow) and learns Taeguek il jang. There is inverse relationship between geup rank and Taeguek so that they add up to 9 (i.e. 8th guep learns TG 1, 8+1 =9; 1st guep learns TG8...)

 

[Kacey]

10 gups, 9 tuls (patterns), 3 exercises

10th - 9th (white to high white) Saju Jirugi (4 direction punch), Saju Maki (4 direction block)
9th - 8th (high white to yellow) Chon-Ji tul
8th - 7th (yellow to high yellow) Dan-Gun tul
7th - 6th (high yellow to green) Do-San tul
6th -5th (green to high green) Won-Hyo tul
5th - 4th (high green to blue) Yul-Gok tul
4th - 3rd (blue to high blue) Joon-Gun tul
3rd - 2nd (high blue to red) Toi-Gye tul
2nd - 1st (red to high red) Hwa-Rang tul, Saju Tolki (4 direction thrust)
1st - I Dan (high red to black belt) Chung-Moo tul
I Dan - II Dan - Kwang-Gae, Po-Eun, Ge-Baek
II Dan - III Dan - Eui-Am, Choon-Jang, Juche (Ko-Dang - historical revenant)
III Dan - IV Dan - Sam-Il, Yoo-Sin, Choi-Yong
IV Dan - V Dan - Yong-Gae, Ul-Ji, Moon-Mu
V Dan - VI Dan - So-San, Se-Jong
VI Dan - VII Dan - Tong-Il

There are no additional tuls for VIII or IX. Dan

 

[Aefibird]

At my current TKD club the patterns are as follows:

10 kup - 17 Basics
9 kup - Taeguek Il Jang
8 kuy - Taeguek Ee Jang
7 kup - Taeguek Sam Jang
6 kup - Taeguek Sah Jang
5 kup - Taeguek Oh Jang
4 kup - Taeguek Yuk Jang
3 kup - Taeguek Chil Jang
2 kup - Taeguek Pal Jang
1 kup - Taeguek Pal Jang, Koryo + any other patterns of instructor's choice.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

ok,
So this may or may not apply to a lot of people....

"Traditionally" (whatever that means) there were 10 gup ranks. But, the WTF only has 8 color belt forms (not sure about other orgs). For those of you who follow this format (or something similar) what do you teach when you run out of forms?
Currently, we add in some weapons in between. So you'll learn TG 5 at blue, and then focus on nunchakus and some hoshinsool at high blue, then back to TG 6 at red.
I think another option would be to only have 8 levels (belt colors) but consider one "color" as both 3rd and 2nd gup (for example), depending on the time in grade.

What do you do? And if you don't have a new form at each level, what do you teach?

Just to clarify something: The WTF has no ranks at all, gup or otherwise. Rank and such is through the Kukkiwon. The way that the two orgs are joined at the hip is simply confusing to most and they really ought to just merge (my opinion).

Anyway, there are ten levels, so to speak, but really only nine earnable gups, unless you count dan bo and call it a nominal gup.

White belt is "tenth" gup, but you don't earn it exept by showing up.

At ninth gup, you learn Taegeuk Iljang and must successfully perform it, along with all of the technique and basics that you learn, in order to earn eighth gup.

This goes on through second gup, where you learn Taegeuk Paljang, which is a requirement for earning first geup.

At first gup, you don't generally learn a new form, but are drilled on comprehensive knowledge of the eight forms and all gup rank material in preparation for either ildan or dan bo, depending on the school.

At first dan, you learn Koryo.

I'm not sure at what point you 'run out of forms', but there is a great deal to taekwondo other than learning forms. Once the Taegeuk forms are learned, they should be perfected. Old material should be perfected. Fine detail of the students technique should be honed at the dan bo and first dan levels.

A lot of schools throw in weapon forms at some point, though I am not in favor of that in taekwondo. Weapon forms are always grafted onto a curriculum that never was intended for weapons, and is really done just to keep students from quiting.

Generally, I feel that there are more productive things to do for students than getting them into weapons, especially in the colored belt ranks. Even a blackbelt still has a long way to go before weapons should be introduced, and for colored belt students, I feel that it is a disservice.

I find that there a lot of aspects of taekwondo that get glossed over in enough schools, so much so that weapons are a distraction.

Keep in mind that that is my opinion; some very good schools differ in their philosphy on weapons, my own school included, though our school won't do weapons until you're a blackbelt (kendo not withstanding).

Some of my opinion regarding weapons is that to really learn a weapon is full discipline in and of itself. The mindset is different and the technique set is often radically different.

I do feel that if a weapon or weapons are well integrated into the curriculum in such a way as to work synergystically, that it could be very beneficial. That is not what I generally see when weapon forms are added to taekwondo. They're often added just to have another form to keep students interested.

Okay, sorry for the side track, Lauren

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

Great point!
There is plenty in the curriculum and those forms to worry about getting right. The problem today is quantity over substance. I remember when I started and my teacher would tell us the story of the prince bringing his son to a master and after 6 months being furious that his son was just doing deep stance punches. Six months later the same thing. When the king asked how much more of this the master replied many years.
We used to talk of practicing a technique a 1000 times. We used to do kicks and hold posture in fear of Chukt Do whacking us for being lazy.
Now everyone wants 56 forms, weapons etc and cant deliver a true power punch or sidekick. Sad....thats my rant for the day, sorry.

Dave O.

 

[mango.man]

Just to clarify something: The WTF has no ranks at all, gup or otherwise. Rank and such is through the Kukkiwon. The way that the two orgs are joined at the hip is simply confusing to most and they really ought to just merge (my opinion).

Just to add to the clarity / confusion, Daniel is right that rank is issued through KKW. However, only dan ranks, not gups. Gup ranks are on a school by school basis and KKW has no interest in them.

This is why there is no consistency between the color belts from one school to another. Some KKW affiliated schools have blue before green while others are green before blue. Some have non-standard belt colors like purple or orange etc. Some have multiple levels of belt like "low red", "middle red" and "high red" etc.

This is why it is difficult also for color belts to transfer from 1 KKW school to another and maintain their rank, while dan ranks are usually allowed to keep their dan rank if they move from 1 KKW school to another, even if they suck, providing the new school wants to take in a KKW black belt that might not meet their standard of excellence.

I recently went by our old school, that we have not attended for about 2 1/2 years now. It is next to the place that I get my hair cut. There was a sign on the door that said "Due to increased fees from Kukkiwon, all belt testing fees will increase by $10 effective 2/15/09". I would so love to go in there and call them on that. I mean not only is it a complete lie that KKW has changed their dan fees, but as I explained above, KKW does not get involved at all in gup promotions.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to add to the clarity / confusion, Daniel is right that rank is issued through KKW. However, only dan ranks, not gups. Gup ranks are on a school by school basis and KKW has no interest in them.

Yes. I should have clarified that. The KKW does set the curriculum fog the gup ranks, but they neither issue nor track them.

Good catch, Mango!

Daniel

 

[ACJ]

Yes. I should have clarified that. The KKW does set the curriculum fog the gup ranks, but they neither issue nor track them.

Really? Where could I find that?

We have 2 basic patterns. Just 'cos we're that awesome.

Going to 9th Gup - Basic Pattern 1 (14 step)
8th Gup - Basic Pattern 2 (20 step)
7th Gup - il jang
6th Gup - E jang
5th Gup - sam jang
4th Gup - sa jang
3rd Gup - O jang, il jang
2nd Gup - yuk jang, O jang, E jang
1st Gup - chil jang, yuk jang, sam jang
Cho Dan Bo - pal jang, chil jang, sa jang
1st Dan - Koryo, All taeguk poomsae
2nd Dan - Keumgang, Koryo, All taeguk poomsae
etc

 

[Laurentkd]

Really? Where could I find that?

We have 2 basic patterns. Just 'cos we're that awesome.

Going to 9th Gup - Basic Pattern 1 (14 step)
8th Gup - Basic Pattern 2 (20 step)
7th Gup - il jang
6th Gup - E jang
5th Gup - sam jang
4th Gup - sa jang
3rd Gup - O jang, il jang
2nd Gup - yuk jang, O jang, E jang
1st Gup - chil jang, yuk jang, sam jang
Cho Dan Bo - pal jang, chil jang, sa jang
1st Dan - Koryo, All taeguk poomsae
2nd Dan - Keumgang, Koryo, All taeguk poomsae
etc

Hmmm... so basically you throw in a couple old forms at the higher ranks to make sure a student is really good at those old forms? I like that idea. Currently all our student are required to know their old forms and their current form before each new rank. But the idea of going back and actually working on a SPECIFIC old form is a good one. I think there is so much more to learn from TG 1,2,3 than is really picked up at the beginner level. To really make someone truely re-study that form (rather than just keeping the movements fresh) could be a great asset.
Thanks!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Really? Where could I find that?

While it is not explicitely stated that they do not track gup ranks on their website, tracking your Kukkiwon rank requires either the person's exact name as it appears on the KKW issued certificate or the certificate number.

Since the Kukkiwon does not issue the gup certificates, they do not track them. Each school uses their own certificate numbers (if any). Gup certificates do not get processed through the Kukkiwon, which is why you don't have to wait a month or two to receive your certificate for a gup certificate the way that you do for a dan certificate.

As for setting the curriculum if the school is a KKW school, once the student tests for ildan, they must meet the Kukkiwon requirements for ildan.

It should be noted that the Kukkiwon curriculum is not all inclusive, so a school is free to add any material that they desire, from aikido/hapkido joint locks/manipulation to exotic weapon training.

For that reason alone, all Kukkiwon blackbelts are not identical.

Daniel

 

[exile]

We use the Kichos to get from white belt to green (white --> orange --> yellow ---> green), but in addition to Kicho Sam Jang, they have to know Palgwe Il Jang for green belt. From there, it's one Palgwe per rank up to Shodan. Ii Dan requires Koryu, Eunbi and Rohai, and higher ranks involve a fair number of Japanese karate kata.

 

[ACJ]

Hmmm... so basically you throw in a couple old forms at the higher ranks to make sure a student is really good at those old forms? I like that idea. Currently all our student are required to know their old forms and their current form before each new rank. But the idea of going back and actually working on a SPECIFIC old form is a good one. I think there is so much more to learn from TG 1,2,3 than is really picked up at the beginner level. To really make someone truely re-study that form (rather than just keeping the movements fresh) could be a great asset.
Thanks!

Yeah and it works out well that each Poomse gets done twice before black belt (except for pal jang)

 

[ACJ]

While it is not explicitely stated that they do not track gup ranks on their website, tracking your Kukkiwon rank requires either the person's exact name as it appears on the KKW issued certificate or the certificate number.

Since the Kukkiwon does not issue the gup certificates, they do not track them. Each school uses their own certificate numbers (if any). Gup certificates do not get processed through the Kukkiwon, which is why you don't have to wait a month or two to receive your certificate for a gup certificate the way that you do for a dan certificate.

As for setting the curriculum if the school is a KKW school, once the student tests for ildan, they must meet the Kukkiwon requirements for ildan.

It should be noted that the Kukkiwon curriculum is not all inclusive, so a school is free to add any material that they desire, from aikido/hapkido joint locks/manipulation to exotic weapon training.

For that reason alone, all Kukkiwon blackbelts are not identical.

Daniel

What I was actually questioning, was that you said that they set gup minimum requirements. I know about the bare minimums set by the kukkiwon, but have no idea what you're talking about with the gup syllabus.

And does your school make its own gup certificates? That's interesting

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What I was actually questioning, was that you said that they set gup minimum requirements. I know about the bare minimums set by the kukkiwon, but have no idea what you're talking about with the gup syllabus.

And does your school make its own gup certificates? That's interesting

I believe that most schools do so.

As for the gup syllabus, there are the eight forms, which are taught in order. I do not believe that the Kukkiwon has a 'gup' quantity requirement; only that they set what material must be learned cummulatively in the gup ranks.

For the most part, the Kukkiwon wants a specific set of material to be learned in order for a student to test for black belt. Most schools are roughly on the same page with regards to what is taught at what level, mainly because the material lends itself to being taught in the same general order.

Daniel

 

[ACJ]

I haven't been to a school that gives out gup certificates yet.

I hardly think it appropriate to say that each school ends up teaching roughly the same thing because that they are moving towards the minimum requirements set by the Kukkiwon. Those requirements are so barebone, that if a school was to teach just what they asked then they would have very empty classes. Now I'm not arguing that anyone does that or that you think that anyone does that, all I'm saying is that, that leaves quite a lot of freedom for each school, making it hard for them to be roughly on the same page. Additionally, even the requirements are vague at best.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I haven't been to a school that gives out gup certificates yet.

I hardly think it appropriate to say that each school ends up teaching roughly the same thing because that they are moving towards the minimum requirements set by the Kukkiwon. Those requirements are so barebone, that if a school was to teach just what they asked then they would have very empty classes. Now I'm not arguing that anyone does that or that you think that anyone does that, all I'm saying is that, that leaves quite a lot of freedom for each school, making it hard for them to be roughly on the same page. Additionally, even the requirements are vague at best.

Actually, that is a pretty good assessment, though it is easier to be roughly on the same page than you might think.

Pretty much every TKD school will teach the same set of kicks, punches and blocks, and very likely in about the same order. The forms are taught in the same order, and sometimes a 'basic' form or two is added to prep students for the Taegeuk forms.

The points of divergence usually come in the areas of self defense, one step sparring, weapons, and the focus of the school on either sport/competition, traditional taekwondo, or glorified daycare/fitness center with social clubs where some kind of taekwondo is found.

Given that most schools have classes ranging from 45 minutes to an hour, it is not hard at all to fill up a class with just the bare bones Kukkiwon material. Take up the first fifteen minutes with warming up and you have only a half an hour to forty five minutes. A lot of schools do block teaching, so one night, everyone may be learning blackbelt material, and another night yellow belt material. I find this practice distasteful, but it is fairly common from what I have seen.

Daniel