Feelin' down...and a little advice?

[brocklee]

Originally Posted by Tez3

I don't think that because you do one style and also do BJJ that makes you an MMA fighter, it's not that easy lol!

It's a lot easier then trying to keep them separate. I do think that if I were to select another fighting style it would be BJJ. It's a great style. However, there's much more to be learned in my WC and don't see time in the future to incorporate it into my training.

I believe if you're training 2 styles, you will start switching between the two when called into a fight. When this happens, I would say that its MMA. If you can stick to the BJJ in one fight and then use only WC in another, then you are really good at mental and physical control. It would be difficult to rely on muscle memory, that's for sure.

[Flying Crane]

Originally Posted by brocklee

Well, it's very hard to spar and not lose if using WC.

It's really difficult to "play spar" with friends, using any traditional martial art. You are just playing, not reallying fighting, so whatever you throw at them, you can't really hurt them. If you tag your grappling buddy with a punch and say "I just nailed you", he says "no you didn't, it didn't hurt me!" and then he just grapples you down. A lot of traditional martial arts, esp. those geared toward striking, just don't work if you do them "half way". It's really a matter of all or nothing. You need to use it 100%, or not at all 'cause it won't work if you don't.

[brocklee]

Originally Posted by Flying Crane

It's really difficult to "play spar" with friends, using any traditional martial art. You are just playing, not reallying fighting, so whatever you throw at them, you can't really hurt them. If you tag your grappling buddy with a punch and say "I just nailed you", he says "no you didn't, it didn't hurt me!" and then he just grapples you down. A lot of traditional martial arts, esp. those geared toward striking, just don't work if you do them "half way". It's really a matter of all or nothing. You need to use it 100%, or not at all 'cause it won't work if you don't.

Yes It really becomes a switch too, between off and on. And that's where staying relaxed plays a big part. I've gotten to the point where when my friends accidentally hit me...I pop into relaxed mode so that I don't kill them. lol

I've used WC a decent amount of times in bar fights and street brawls. Once that switch is turned on, it takes outsiders to tear me off the other guy. It's great because mentally I just sit back and watch the fight. The body does the rest of the work.

[Kamon Guy]

Originally Posted by brocklee

WC has great ground fighting capabilities because we are used to very close range attacks..

No no no no no !!!
If you are taken to the floor, you're wing chun goes to pot. Think about where you generate power from. Your stance and your hip. If you are pinned, you can't use these. It is unlikely that you will run into a BJJ black belt in the street, but most big guys can hold you down.

A lot of good wing chun masters realise that wing chun is not good on the ground. Both Kevin Chan and Alan Orr have explored grappling arts for this very reason.

Originally Posted by brocklee

Everything that you learn standing up, can be applied when horizontal. You do want to avoid going to the ground and WC has great anti-grappling moves that most people aren't interested in learning.

Again, you can do some 'okay' anti grappling techniques, but these will not work on experienced street fighters or anyone who has done a good bit of grappling training
Yet if you learnt BJJ and add your wing chun to that, its devastating

[brocklee]

Originally Posted by Kamon Guy

No no no no no !!!
If you are taken to the floor, you're wing chun goes to pot. Think about where you generate power from. Your stance and your hip. If you are pinned, you can't use these. It is unlikely that you will run into a BJJ black belt in the street, but most big guys can hold you down.

A lot of good wing chun masters realise that wing chun is not good on the ground. Both Kevin Chan and Alan Orr have explored grappling arts for this very reason.


Again, you can do some 'okay' anti grappling techniques, but these will not work on experienced street fighters or anyone who has done a good bit of grappling training
Yet if you learnt BJJ and add your wing chun to that, its devastating

Ok, so you're a MMA fighter then. The pieces are falling together.

And on the street, belts hold up pants and keep engines going.

[Kamon Guy]

No not really. I don't go to MMA gyms or mix up movements. My primary art is wing chun. But if I go to ground, I'm not going to frantically attempt to hit the attacker, because it is a bad position, with no possibility of hip rotation. I can hit pretty hard using just brute force, but so could my attacker!

I would rather neutralise him with BJJ, recover and then get back into wing chun mode

I would challenge any wing chunner to start off on the floor with an average grappler or street fighter and still win the fight.

[Flying Crane]

Originally Posted by Kamon Guy

But if I go to ground, I'm not going to frantically attempt to hit the attacker, because it is a bad position, with no possibility of hip rotation. I can hit pretty hard using just brute force, but so could my attacker!

wing chun includes much more than just chain punching. There are a lot of trapping moves that can work well on the floor, until you manage to get back to your feet.

I would rather neutralise him with BJJ, recover and then get back into wing chun mode

If you have neutralized him with BJJ, then I suppose you have choked him out or dislocated his ankle or shoulder or something and the fight is over. You don't need to get back up and go into wing chun mode.

I would challenge any wing chunner to start off on the floor with an average grappler or street fighter and still win the fight.

Why would you ever BEGIN a fight on the ground? This just makes no sense. Something had to happen to get you there first.

Self defense is not about staying on the ground and attempting to win the submission. That is the realm of competition. In self defense, if you go to the ground then you need to work for the first chance to get back up and get away. You NEVER want to stick around and win the submission. That doesn't matter. All that matters is getting away with minimal injury.

If you try to defeat a specialist in his area of specialty, you will lose. Never let him force you into his game. Make him play your game.

Do you think that the average street punk, against whom you might need to defend yourself (not compete against, it's a different thing), is going to have training in BJJ? I seriously doubt it...

[Sukerkin]

Originally Posted by Flying Crane

If you try to defeat a specialist in his area of specialty, you will lose. Never let him force you into his game. Make him play your game.

This is very important, important enough for me to repeat.

I don't know how this thread started to show signs of mutating yet again into a "Martial Arts don't work" fest but I do wish people would think once in a while about how and why the arts were developed.

Contrast that with the lineage of 'street brawling' or MMA aggressive sports.

Which were designed from the outset to kill when your weapons were unavailable? At base level, martial arts are not about 'playing' at fighting or winning on points.

As to training in more than one art, that's a touch less clear cut. My usual answer is don't train in more than one until you're actually any good in the first. The division of effort tends to mean that you're less good at both. If you have the time to devote solely to martial training and have the knack for it tho', then by all means do more than one.

On the anecdotal front, in empty hand 'work', I've never felt disadvantaged knowing only kung fu. It has no emphasis on ground work per se, other than the short, horrid, strikes needed to get away from would-be grapplers. However, I was fairly sure that unless I didn't see it coming, I wouldn't end up on the ground anyway. Manoever and evasion are things kung fu emphasises quite well. If you get 'rushed and crushed' then the not-very-advertised techniques need to be used - the ones that get you locked up for more than just Breach of the Peace or Common Assault.

I realise I'm getting a bit too deeply serious here, so I'll shut up - I blame the excellent Verdelho I'm cossetting right now .

[SilatFan]

Threads like this (and the attitudes and misconceptions they reveal) are one of the reasons I didn’t stay in WC for long. There is so much talking done in the average WC class about how technical, scientific and principal based WC is as well as how it “proven” to be made for the smaller person, and blah, blah, blah… In the beginning it creates a false sense of security in the student and after a few years it creates a real arrogance and then the student is so invested in believing the propaganda that they refuse to acknowledge the truth and eventually begin to regurgitate it to the next generation. Any statement that implies that their art isn’t perfect and doesn’t have ALL the answers is taken as a personal indictment on all that is holy. Instead of continuing to grow, instead of continuing to learn they become further and further separated from the rest of the world and reality. Instead of helping others avoid this trap they try to get others to fall into it because to do otherwise would mean that they were “wrong” (in other words it’s about their ego and their fear).
This same statement could be attributed to just about every MA out there but as someone that has study many arts for many years WC, in my experience, tends to be guilty of this to a higher degree than any other that I’ve ever encountered.

Nyrotic:
Follow Kamon Guy’s advice. There definitely are some other good responses on this thread but his are the ones that stood out to me the most at this time. Definitely continue to study WC and do your best to learn it but if anyone tries to tell you that it has the answers to defending yourself on the ground then they are either grossly misinformed or lying to you (and themselves) outright and please refer to the first paragraph. Grappling is a REAL issue for self-defense. Just because you wouldn’t recommend trying to use it on someone because it’s a better idea to stay on your feet does not mean that it won’t be devastating to you when it’s used on you. Reference your own training experience with two untrained grapplers. It is one thing “untrained” street fighters do naturally. If “self-defense” is why you are training then get some ground training as well as – not necessarily instead of – your WC.

Good luck and have fun!

[brocklee]

Originally Posted by SilatFan

Threads like this (and the attitudes and misconceptions they reveal) are one of the reasons I didn’t stay in WC for long. There is so much talking done in the average WC class about how technical, scientific and principal based WC is as well as how it “proven” to be made for the smaller person, and blah, blah, blah… In the beginning it creates a false sense of security in the student and after a few years it creates a real arrogance and then the student is so invested in believing the propaganda that they refuse to acknowledge the truth and eventually begin to regurgitate it to the next generation. Any statement that implies that their art isn’t perfect and doesn’t have ALL the answers is taken as a personal indictment on all that is holy. Instead of continuing to grow, instead of continuing to learn they become further and further separated from the rest of the world and reality. Instead of helping others avoid this trap they try to get others to fall into it because to do otherwise would mean that they were “wrong” (in other words it’s about their ego and their fear).
This same statement could be attributed to just about every MA out there but as someone that has study many arts for many years WC, in my experience, tends to be guilty of this to a higher degree than any other that I’ve ever encountered.

Nyrotic:
Follow Kamon Guy’s advice. There definitely are some other good responses on this thread but his are the ones that stood out to me the most at this time. Definitely continue to study WC and do your best to learn it but if anyone tries to tell you that it has the answers to defending yourself on the ground then they are either grossly misinformed or lying to you (and themselves) outright and please refer to the first paragraph. Grappling is a REAL issue for self-defense. Just because you wouldn’t recommend trying to use it on someone because it’s a better idea to stay on your feet does not mean that it won’t be devastating to you when it’s used on you. Reference your own training experience with two untrained grapplers. It is one thing “untrained” street fighters do naturally. If “self-defense” is why you are training then get some ground training as well as – not necessarily instead of – your WC.

Good luck and have fun!

Sounds like you had one of THOSE sifus. Sorry to hear it.

[Tanizaki]

Originally Posted by brocklee

Well, it's very hard to spar and not lose if using WC. The reason being is that WC is a lawless style and can only be effective if used at full force.

I've heard this from practitioners of a number of styles, but the majority are WC people. It is not persuasive. If it makes you lose when there are rules, what makes you think you'll win when there are no rules?

[brocklee]

Originally Posted by Tanizaki

I've heard this from practitioners of a number of styles, but the majority are WC people. It is not persuasive. If it makes you lose when there are rules, what makes you think you'll win when there are no rules?

HAHA :P Welcome back. We missed you

[Tanizaki]

Originally Posted by brocklee

Ok, so you're a MMA fighter then. The pieces are falling together.

I don't see what's wrong with MMA. What difference does it make if you win with a roundhouse to the face, a choke, or a chain punch?

[Tanizaki]

Originally Posted by brocklee

HAHA :P Welcome back. We missed you

Thanks. I look forward to your responsive reply.

[Sukerkin]

Not to be horribly negative, Tanizaki but that question sets aside one of the core tenets of any martial art's raison d'etre - kill the attacker or inflict such harm on him that he can no longer attack.

Some arts have major techniques that if toned down simply don't have the effect they were designed for - introduce rules (such as 'Don't kill your opponent') and the art's perceived effectiveness drops dramatically.

I can see that there seems to a large anti-Wing-Chun tide rising here and I'm interested in why? I've not studied WC, other than those elements that were enveloped within JKD which in turn got swallowed into Lau Gar Kung Fu, so I have no frame of reference to judge. Can anyone help provide some illumination on this?